45 replies to this topic

[jonathon]

If I had any kind of talent like this I would want to achieve the same, no doubt about it.

There is no such thing as talent. Rather, there is practice, practice, and still more practice.

Circa 1975, five years of 7/24 practice, was, in most sports, enough to qualify for a position on the country team that went to the Olympics.

Today, depending upon the specific event, it takes between ten and twenty years of 7/24 practice, to win a place on the Olympic team of a major country.

I agree, that is the way things are done now, but we are talking about the cure for all the world's worst illnesses - and especially that of sin.

Things have to be paid for. Somewhere, sometime, when you least expect it, there is somebody with their hand out, expecting a payment for the goods or services that they have delivered.

Historically, all attempts at the local level to live without money have failed.

Indeed, those countries that are currently proposing to eliminate cash, are merely transferring money from the physical realm, to the digital realm. (The play book for how those digital money only countries operate could easily have been taken from Revelations.)

When you think of the letters that Paul wrote, he did those things while working on tents in the market place.

This treads into something that has been extensively debated in both pastoral and missionary circles for centuries. There are no easy answers.

Publishing companies are not, for the most part, missionary enterprises.

Missionaries that use publishing as part of their means of spreading the gospel end up either having to both sell their content, and rely on donations, simply to stay afloat.

Historically, the United States has supplied more than 80% of the money that is used to support evangelism, world-wide. Perhaps unexpected, more than 70% of the money used for evangelism worldwide, is spent in the United States, targeting people in the United States. (Ironically, the most targeted places for evangelism, by people outside of the United States are The United States, Europe, and the 10-40 belt. Within the United States, the most targeted places are the United States, the 10-40 belt, and Europe.)

Foreign missionaries to the United States usually adopt a self-support model. IOW, they work full time for a local company, and evangelize during the rest of the time.
Missionaries from the United States, to other countries, have typically relied on support from people in the United States, working full time/overtime in evangelizing.

That's saddening. Thank you, that's a little history I didn't know.

The driving force behind distributing Bibles without the Deuterocanonical material was economics, not theology.

jonathon

[BigPaw]

Jonathon, I really do respect the thought you are putting into your explanation here, but something more than statistics and what theologians think is needed. I base my way of life around on what God's word, the Bible, says. I've always strived, (i.e. not always succeeding) to avoid the trait Paul speaks of at 2 Corinthians 2:1-5. Almighty God can achieve anything he wants with His great power, and he will do so via servants who will work and build in the way he wants them to, we only need to look to Noah's example to see this.

James kindly reminds us of where all these good things come from, and so why sell them on? {James 1:17} Perhaps 'ticket touts" could be labelled on those who abuse the gift they have received from God in his great love.In fact maybe the thought at 1 Corinthians 4:7 would make any with wrong motive or purpose think about the question that verse raises? It says, "What do you have that you did not receive?"

It really irks me when I see exorbitant prices placed on what has been given to us through Christ's shed blood for free. But please don't read into this that I am judging any on this forum or those that have disagreed with me. God will do the judging - I'm just curious and exploring this subject together with you.

Maybe we should just agree to differ. I do see the logic you are using, but it's clear we disagree with one another. Recently we seem to have differed on other things, and I don't want this matter to look like I am "Lookin' for trouble" as Elvis put it. :-)

Edited by BigPaw, 15 August 2012 - 04:38 PM.

[BaptizedBeliever]

Some of the more detailed commentaries and dictionaries take many people many years to complete, and it is practically a full-time gig during that time. So, imagine paying the salary of 40 people for 2 years. Add into that the time of someone(s) typesetting the entire 26-volume set (like Pulpit commentary). With one person fully dedicated and quick, that's another year's worth of work. [I understand that typesetting isn't really done anymore, but with the older massive works it was] Add into that cost the amount of money it takes for purchasing of the paper, the ink, the printing and binding of the books, and the distribution of them as well, and you come up with a much larger number than you might think. Exactly where does the money come from to pay for this endeavor? The book publishers basically put the money up front to cover all these expenses in the hope that they will be able to recoup their investment and (hopefully) make a bit of profit - which is what businesses generally try to do.

It'd be different if a church decided to go into the publishing business to make money. After all, the church in the Bible got its funds from free-will offerings of the members. If the church becomes a for-profit enterprise, then there's a problem.

Another example, and then I'll quietly exit. The translator for the Spoken English New Testament (available on this site) took out loans so he wouldn't have to work for four years while he did the translating work. He is selling copies of his translation to try to pay back those loans (but he still gives copies to those who can't afford it).

[Josh Bond]

Some of the more detailed commentaries and dictionaries take many people many years to complete, and it is practically a full-time gig during that time. So, imagine paying the salary of 40 people for 2 years. Add into that the time of someone(s) typesetting the entire 26-volume set (like Pulpit commentary). With one person fully dedicated and quick, that's another year's worth of work. [I understand that typesetting isn't really done anymore, but with the older massive works it was] Add into that cost the amount of money it takes for purchasing of the paper, the ink, the printing and binding of the books, and the distribution of them as well, and you come up with a much larger number than you might think. Exactly where does the money come from to pay for this endeavor? The book publishers basically put the money up front to cover all these expenses in the hope that they will be able to recoup their investment and (hopefully) make a bit of profit - which is what businesses generally try to do.

It'd be different if a church decided to go into the publishing business to make money. After all, the church in the Bible got its funds from free-will offerings of the members. If the church becomes a for-profit enterprise, then there's a problem.

Another example, and then I'll quietly exit. The translator for the Spoken English New Testament (available on this site) took out loans so he wouldn't have to work for four years while he did the translating work. He is selling copies of his translation to try to pay back those loans (but he still gives copies to those who can't afford it).

I agree with you.

Plus, there's no shortage of almost all translations online. You can read the Bible in almost any format for free. And that's God's word--not all the books written about God's word, necessarily. Publisher's aren't saying: pay me $100 or you can't read the Bible. They're saying, if you want to use the scholarly work that Bible scholars have worked years (or decades on), you need to pay so we can compensate them, their own staff, and bring more scholarly work to the market. So I'm not sure why Jesus, the Temple, and the money changer story keeps being applied to scholarly material written about the Bible.

If some else makes their translation, and they charge for it--I also don't see that as detrimental. If you can't afford it, or don't want to pay, use one of the other hundreds of translations freely available online. You can access the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV, Jewish Bible, and about 100 more: http://www.biblegateway.com/

[jonathon]

With one person fully dedicated and quick, that's another year's worth of work.

Part of the reason that multi-volume works are/were printed over the course of several years, was because everything was predicated upon how fast the typesetters could work.

I understand that typesetting isn't really done anymore

Good publishing houses use layout designers, whose task is essentially the same as the typesetter of old. To produce a document that is readable, attractive, and appropriate for the target audience. Bad publishing houses rely on the presentation markup of various word processing programs.

the church in the Bible got its funds from free-will offerings of the members.

Up to somewhere between 100 and 150 years ago, the most common method for churches to generate revenue, was to sell pew tickets. The collection plate was for specific purposes, and infrequently resorted to.

If the church becomes a for-profit enterprise, then there's a problem.

In various countries, including the United States, a case can be made that theologically, churches should incorporate as for-profit corporations, rather than 501©(3) organizations.
On the flip side, an equally solid case can be made that churches should be setup as "unincorporated non-profit organizations".

The translator for the Spoken English New Testament (available on this site) took out loans so he wouldn't have to work for four years while he did the translating work.

A new way to achieve that objective (spend four years translating the text) would be crowd-funding using Kickstarter.com, or similar site.

jonathon

[BigPaw]

Perhaps it would help to look at statistics, etc, for a moment then. As your thoughts do offer descriptions of the efforts of those that have made apparent sacrifices. Who would you say is the largest publisher of Bible literature. Or, perhaps, there is a better way of asking that question? Can you name business that clearly demonstrate the model you are explaining in that they are just making a modest living by their hard work as 2 Timothy 6:6-7 says of a Christian, and not profiteering, or not being "pedlers" as 1 Corinthians 2:17 (ESV, NASB) describes? Please use whatever profit margin statistics, or other factors that you feel demonstrate the model you are explaining.

This is a fascinating subject for discussion, I've never engaged in this discussion before. Some important thoughts are going to come out of this.

[Josh Bond]

I don't have any Christian publishing statistics, as most are privately held. I know most published books make little for the publisher and less for the author. Jonathon's publishing stats sound like what I've heard elsewhere--1 book out of 10 subsidizes the 9 that fail. The Christian audience is a much narrower audience then say, the Harry Potter audience, resulting in fewer sales.

What evidence do you have that a specific author or publishing house makes an enormous amount of money selling a commentary or scholarly work that you cannot get for free online--or similar content for free online? For example, I know the NIV parent company makes a great deal of money selling Bibles--but you can read it online for free. So the purchases of that Bible are discretionary--not mandatory.

The Christian Publishing industry isn't like the Roman Catholic church in the dark ages: pay us money and we'll read you a small portion of the Bible (taken out of context, of course, in Latin(??)). As Brad said, almost all premium e-Sword content can be found for free online in various forms--or the equivalent thereof.

I know that some of these resources take many years, even decades to produce, some represent an author(s) life long work. I have no problem with them charging money so they can extrapolate a salary from their hours of work. Without it, the resources may never have been created. I've looked at the advertisements for the Biblical Illustrator, Pulpit Commentary, many of F.B Meyers works, etc. Money is how those resources were created. Without the prospect of selling those commentaries in that day, they would not have been written--that's very clear.

Having said all that--everything we provide is for free. Because I feel strongly public domain content should be free.

[jonathon]

Can you name business that clearly demonstrate the model you are explaining in that they are just making a modest living by their hard work as 2 Timothy 6:6-7 says of a Christian, and not profiteering, or not being "pedlers" as 1 Corinthians 2:17 (ESV, NASB) describes?

The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society probably is the largest distributor of Biblical literature, that operates along the lines of self support/donations of money and time.

Zondervan is probably the largest distributor of English language Biblical literature, that operates along the lines of selling content.

Please use whatever profit margin statistics, or other factors that you feel demonstrate the model you are explaining.

I'm using number of titles printed and number of copies distributed as the basis. More precisely, I'm using a list that is roughly five years old. Since most books are now POD, at least after the initial print run, I doubt that the position has changed that much.

In terms of producing in Braille content, The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the "winner" here. That organization produces more Braille volumes per year, than any other organization in the world. (Their claim, and they have the number of Braille Printers to back that claim up.)

jonathon

[jonathon]

I know that some of these resources take many years, even decades to produce, some represent an author(s) life long work.

One of the side effects of computers is that research that used to take months, if not years to do, can now be done in a matter of minutes. For example, for the Gematria values (Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Aramaic) of the Bible, I took about an hour to write and debug the python script, and ten minutes to walk through a Bible in one language. In 1985, it took roughly a week to do a single chapter, in one language.

The fifth criteria of the 2009 SBL Biblical Software Shootout, was to find out what the software could do in seconds, what takes weeks, if not months to do manually.

A "sermon generator" program is in development that will, given a topic, list both appropriate Scripture readings, and produce a three point sermon based on an analysis of the Bible, and supplementary material. Given an RCL or lectionary reading, it can produce several "appropriate" sermons, on different topics. (Imagine your preacher giving a sermon, and the first time s/he has heard of the concept being taught, is when he reads his prepared sermon. That is more or less the promise of this sofware genre.)

jonathon

[BigPaw]

Just a moment off topic.. what are these green and red numbers in the bottom right corner of the postings, please?