Jump to content


Member Since 12 Apr 2016
Offline Last Active Mar 28 2020 10:44 PM

Posts I've Made

In Topic: The Clear Word Bible

21 March 2020 - 08:22 PM

"Derived from King James Version": Wikipedia's entry says so, but what is wikipedia's documentation for that claim?.  What does the author say?  Was the author's background?  Did the author have a knowledge of the Biblical languages? He was the Dean of a School of Religion.  Was he dependent on the KJV only?   Have you compared the TCW with the KJV? 


I would go with what the author says, that it is personal devotional paraphrase, after the style of Philips, Taylor and Peterson.  The author states it is not a study Bible. 

Yes, you are correct. The Clear Word is a devotional paraphrase and in no way considered any kind of "official" anything for SDAs.

And while there is a good possibility that the author may have referenced the KJV in some instances, many of his texts do not match the KJV reading but more closely resemble the corrupt Alexandrian text.

For example, the Clear Word renders Revelation 8:13 as "As I looked, I saw in vision an eagle soaring high overhead, crying with a human voice, 'Woe, woe, woe..."

There is not a single Bible from the pure line of manuscripts that uses the word "eagle" in this text. This use of the word "eagle" is solely linked with the corrupt manuscripts from Alexandria (from Eusebius and Origen).

All the manuscripts from the pure line as well as all the Bibles translated from them (KJV, Geneva, Coverdale, Matthews, Tyndale, Olivetan, Diodati, etc. etc.)  use the word "angel". 

This tells me that the author of the Clear Word was being influenced, at least in some degree, by either corrupt Bible versions or corrupt manuscripts, and that his paraphrase is not "based on the KJV". So while I'm sure that the author probably had the best of intentions, I would not consider the Clear Word accurate.

In Topic: Itala Bible (Waldensian)

12 January 2020 - 09:04 PM

Ahh - Think I just figured out how to make it notify me - we'll see if that works.

In Topic: Itala Bible (Waldensian)

12 January 2020 - 09:00 PM

Where are these "real manuscripts" they used? Also have you found any proof that Olivetan was a Waldensian? The preface, which seems to have been written by him, has him saying to Farel and Saunier, "I remember quite well how you...set off three years ago to visit the Christian Churches..." But then later seems to include him in the group, "in our midst...we could not...our brothers..." I have searched several articles and books [Societa di Storia Valdese Bollettino Commemorativo del Sinodo di Cianforan, Giovanni Calvino e la Riforma in Italia "Calvino e la Bibbia di Olivetano",  Le Livre & Ses Secrets, "9. La Bible d'Olivetan" to name a few] and it seems like most people say that he was not a Waldensian, but afterwards may have joined them. It is true that the Waldenses paid for the work to be done, and then they also had to pay to buy copies of it. Anyway, it would be nice to have the Olivetan on e-Sword as well.


Have a great day!

Sorry again, I guess this forum doesn't notify me if someone responds, and I get busy and forget to check it very often.


The manuscripts I'm still trying to find. I can only go by the text of the Bibles that come from them. From what Wylie says in History of Protestantism, there are at least 6 of these Waldensian Bibles in different libraries in Europe.


I do not know exactly "how" Olivetan was a Waldensian - I just understand that he was a Waldensian as far as his beliefs are concerned, and that he was intimately associated with them. It seems that his family had ties to the Waldensian valleys.


"Four Bibles produced under Waldensian influence touched the history of Calvin: namely, a Greek, a Waldensian vernacular, a French, and an Italian. Calvin himself was led to his great work by Olivetan, a Waldensian. Thus was the Reformation brought to Calvin, that brilliant student of the Paris University. Farel, also a Waldensian, besought him to come to Geneva and open up a work there. Calvin felt that he should labor in Paris. According to Leger, Calvin recognized a relationship to the Calvins of the valley of St. Martin, one of the Waldensian Valleys." Our Authorized Bible Vindicated p.37 (Footnote: Leger, History of the Vaudois, p. 167)


One thing I've found while researching the Waldenses, is that many of the modern Waldensians don't have any memory of their ancestors and they don't have a clue about their awesome history. Many of their institution have now been infiltrated by Rome's agents and there is a concerted effort being made to either erase their history or to insert Rome's disinformation to undermine their glorious heritage. When I contacted the Waldensian Cultural Center in Italy searching for one of their manuscripts, I suspicion that I actually reached one of Rome's agents, because of the rude response I received. They basically brushed me off and acted like they didn't know anything about the manuscript.

The Waldensian group in Valdese NC are basically so modernized, they didn't really know any of the basics of their history, and couldn't help me.

The world was swept off its feet when the Pope kissed the supposed Waldensian Bible in 2015 - but what they didn't tell people was that the Bible he kissed was not one of the original Waldensian Bibles that Rome hates, but an inter-confessional Bible that was approved by the Vatican.

The books you mentioned - Are they in PDF - Do you have any links to where I can find them? Would like to check them out.

Just for the record, I have to sort of analyse and study the various books I find on Waldensian history. Some of the "old books" that I've found on Waldensian history, also appear to be written by Rome's agents and filled with disinformation.

Leger's book is extremely accurate Waldensian history, but one of the other supposed "Waldensian" history books (supposedly written by a professor at one of their institutions), was rather derogatory of Leger - telling me that it was put out by an infiltrator. 


I totally agree, would love to see an E-Sword module of the original Olivetan Bible.

Thought about doing one myself, but I haven't gotten around to it, and I don't have a fluent talent in French (not to mention that it is old French which is different than modern French).


You have a great day as well! :)

In Topic: Itala Bible (Waldensian)

12 January 2020 - 07:53 PM

Sorry again, I guess this forum doesn't notify me if someone responds, and I get busy and forget to check it very often.

In Topic: Itala Bible (Waldensian)

21 May 2019 - 02:15 PM

I know this is several years later, but there are some digitized copies of the old Latin on the web. "Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae" Unfortunately, I don't think the Waldensian Bibles were based on this. You can check it out for yourself though.

Here are a few interesting readings,

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east
Valdese - lo solelh [the sun]
Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled...
Valdese - Et erat Joseph et Maria mirantes
John 1:1
Provencaux manuscript B.N. fr. 6261, "En lo comensamen era lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] e lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] era ma Dieu."
John 12:13
Provencaux, "Salva nos, [save us] filh de David!"
Valdese codex Teplensis, "Dicent al filh de David: Fay nos salf! [save us]"

As a note, the idea taught by Otis Fuller and others that the text passed to the Olivetan and then to Diodati is wrong. Olivetan was not even a Waldensian and most likely didn't even know their language. Plus in the preface he clearly says he based it on Hebrew and Greek, not their manuscripts.


Have a great day!


Sorry, I just now discovered your comment.

Thanks for the info on Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae. Unfortunately, you are correct. This is not solely based on pure manuscripts. One way you can check it out for yourself, is to look at Revelation 8:13. In this manuscript, it uses the word "aquile" (eagle) instead of the word for "angel". The use of the word "eagle" instead of "angel" goes back to the corrupted manuscripts that Eusebius made for Constantine in 331 AD. The pure line manuscripts used the word "angel". 

Basically, in all my years of researching, I have found that if the manuscript uses the word "eagle" in this verse, it is proof that the manuscript was at least partially influenced by corrupted manuscripts (if not entirely based on them)! The real manuscripts that the Waldensians used were based on the pure manuscripts and used "angel".


I am not familiar with whatever Otis Fuller promotes about the Olivetan Bible, but Pierre Robert Olivétan was indeed a pastor of the Waldenses. He was John Calvin's cousin and was instrumental in converting John Calvin to the Protestant faith. Yes, Olivetan's French Bible was based on the Hebrew and Greek originals - but that doesn't mean it did not have Vaudois influence! It was the Waldenses themselves who collected money to pay for the Olivetan Bible to be produced and printed (the sum of 1500 gold crowns).

The Olivetan Bible was the gift of the Waldenses to the Protestant Reformation. In fact, the Waldensians, true to their experience of having to work quietly and undercover to prevent Rome's agents from finding and killing them, even hid their mark in the Bible itself.

If you look on the last page of the Olivetan Bible, there is a poem written titled Au Lecteur de la Bible.

This poem is an acrostic, and when you take the first letters of each word and put them together, it spells this dedication: “Les Vaudois, Peuple Evangelique, Ont mis ce Thresor en publique." which translated into English is "The Vaudois, that evangelical people, have given this treasure to the public.



You have a great day as well, and keep up the good work researching the "Pure-line Bibles!"