9 replies to this topic

[xlateitall]

Hijacked! How could this have happened? I wasn't riding in a vehicle of some type that could be taken over by thugs and directed to a different destination. I was studying the Bible. The Bible! The Book of books was my text as I began to see – a word here, another there, then word after word – hijacked! Versions of the Bible where the translation from the source language never fully arrived in the target language seem common. Words have been hijacked and replaced with substitute words, transliterations, and words borrowed from other languages when perfectly suitable English words are available.

Some affects of this 'monkeying' with the text, as I call it:

• artificial vocabulary ('religious-use-only' words)

• inconsistent translation (one source word – many target words)

• altered meaning (from what was written)

Someone might say, “Oh, what you are looking for is a literal version of the Bible.” Excuse my ignorance, but what business would a person have for making a non-literal version? Am I being simplistic? Should the translator's duty be to translate the words, or is he supposed to smooth out difficult statements and make them 'easier to read' by use of 'equivalent thoughts'? Is the task a translation or a commentary?

 

So, here is my desire: I want the Bible in English, translated from the Septuagint and the Majority Text...without artificial vocabulary...with consistent translation of each source word into a single target word...without any alterations, no additions, no subtractions. It would be really impressive if I could change a dictionary entry that would then ripple through and change all occurrences of a source word in the version. Or, change a morphological entry and see its affect on the text. What a mess, right?

 

Well, if what I envision is not available, can someone steer me to some resources that can be used to accomplish this task? I suppose I would need a database containing the Greek text (book, chapter, verse, sequence id for each word) with Strong's numbers, and morphological data. I would also need an expanded Strong's dictionary (that would cover all Old Testament words also), and a morphological table. Please let me know if I am missing anything.

 

Some examples:

angel

apostate

apostle

baptize, baptist, baptism

bishop

blaspheme, blasphemy

Christ

church

cross

deacon

evangelize

gentile

gospel

grace

James

Joshua or Jesus

minister, ministry

pastor

Peter

prophecy, prophet

redemption

repent, repentance

resurrection

righteousness

sacrifice

saint

salvation

sanctification

scriptures

spirit

synagogue

 

[Katoog]

This topic is mostly for Bible interpretations:

While I use all the traditional words that you like is my translation for a bit based on the LXX for OT quotations in harmony with the NT.

 

The Majority Text is a statically text (Hodges and Farstad) but some Byzantine sources are very close of it.

 

Translations based on those sources:

Byzantine Majority 2000 & 2005 Maurice A. Robinson and William G. Pierpont

Wilbur N. Pickering's f35 or Byzantine Greek New Testament(BGNT) 2014

Greek Orthodox Church "Patriarchal" 1912 (based on more then 116 manuscripts and tradition).

 

From all the editions of the Textus Receptus is my Restored Textus Receptus the most close to the Majority Text. (there are always exceptions but I count anything).

 

This translation use the LXX and a kind of Majority Text and traditional words.

The Complete Apostles' Bible (EMTV+LXX) (MAY) Paul W. Esposito and Lancelot C.L. Brenton ©

(Paul W. Esposito for the NT is the same person that made the LOGOS Bilbe).

 

Now in defense for translations that not use all the traditional words:

Angel and messenger is the same word in Hebrew and Greek so an Angel is a supernatural messenger.

Apostle, messenger, envoy, or delegate is the same word in Greek but Apostle is specific.

Baptize means dip or immerse in Greek but baptize is specific as Christian act.

Bishop and overseer is the same word in Greek but a Bishop is an overseer in the Church.

Christ is a Greek translation for Messiah or anointed but Christ is specific for Christians.

Church is a assembly or congregation of Saints (the OT church is called Congregation in my translation)

Deacons means servants in Greek but Deacon is a specific job in the Church

evangelize is not used in the KJV: rather preaching the Gospel.

gentile and nation is the same word in Greek.

Gospel and good news is the same word in Greek but Gospel is specific for Christians.

James is an English form of Jacobus or Jacob.

pastor and shepherd is the same word in Greek but pastor is specific for Christians

Peter(Petros) means stone in Greek: it is a nickname and Cephas(stone in Aramaic) is also used.

Saint and Holy is the same word in Hebrew and Greek but Saints are Holy People.

spirit: the KJV translate it also as Ghost but Webster used spirit or expired (gave up the ghost).

 

synagogue: there is no excuse for miss-translation of synagogue in positive context: for Christians was a synagogue a Church building.

[xlateitall]

Thank you for your response, Katoog. I have been using the Complete Apostles' Bible along with others. I also checked out your version. That must have been an enormous task.

 

Here is an example from your Restored Holy Bible (http://rhb.altervista.org/RHB8PDF.pdf). The Greek word διάκονος is translated deacon, minister, and servant. One Greek word is translated into three different English words. But it was not three different Greek words, it was one Greek word. The one Greek word was used to describe various serving responsibilities. The term was not used exclusively as 'a specific job in the church', but generally, including even those who were serving at a wedding. The Greek reader would see one term - 'διάκονος'. He would not see a word that means 'διάκονος', he would see the word 'διάκονος'. The translator is the one responsible for changing the one word into three words in English. 'Inconsistent translation' is an appropriate description of this activity.

 

Other examples from your version have a translated word followed by another word in brackets. See Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Timothy 3:2. Great examples, but why stop there? Why not translate it all?

 

Eph 4:11

And He gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some shepherds[pastors] and teachers;

1Ti 3:2

an overseer[bishop] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, discreet, modest, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

 

Now, back to my reason for posting. I do not consider the topic of my post to be Bible interpretations, but rather the search for a trusty, consistent translation.

 

Perhaps the text I described is beyond the capabilities of a module. But, aren't there building blocks available that can assist me in the module creation process? Any tables of data that I can edit without starting completely from scratch? Anyone willing to share a Greek Septuagint and Majority Text file that contain book, chapter, verse, Greek word, Greek primary, morphology, English gloss, Strong's number? I expect I will also need a Strong's file, expanded for Old Testament words, and a morphological table.

 

Maybe my goal is an automated translation, one where I may edit the dictionary as I study. Perhaps our Father in heaven will be pleased to give to me this request. I would hope that I would share such a gift with others.

[Katoog]

Thank you for your response, Katoog. I have been using the Complete Apostles' Bible along with others. I also checked out your version. That must have been an enormous task.

 

Here is an example from your Restored Holy Bible (http://rhb.altervista.org/RHB8PDF.pdf). The Greek word διάκονος is translated deacon, minister, and servant. One Greek word is translated into three different English words. But it was not three different Greek words, it was one Greek word. The one Greek word was used to describe various serving responsibilities. The term was not used exclusively as 'a specific job in the church', but generally, including even those who were serving at a wedding. The Greek reader would see one term - 'διάκονος'. He would not see a word that means 'διάκονος', he would see the word 'διάκονος'. The translator is the one responsible for changing the one word into three words in English. 'Inconsistent translation' is an appropriate description of this activity.

 

Other examples from your version have a translated word followed by another word in brackets. See Ephesians 4:11 and 1 Timothy 3:2. Great examples, but why stop there? Why not translate it all?

 

Eph 4:11

And He gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some shepherds[pastors] and teachers;

1Ti 3:2

an overseer[bishop] then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, discreet, modest, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Ok, from translator viewpoint: G1249 διάκονος deacon

 

Mat 20:26  But it shall not be so among you: but whoever may will be great among you, let him be your servant: (RHB8)

Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;  (KJV)

Mat 20:26  But it will not be so among you^°, but whoever wishes to become great among you^°, he will be your^° servant; (MLV2017)

 

(note: minister means servant in the context: not superior).

https://www.etymonli...m/word/minister

 

Do you think that deacon was a better translation in this context?

 

Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers: (RHB8 and KJV)

Rom 15:8  But I am saying that Christ Jesus has become a servant of the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God, ^*that^* he might confirm the promises given to the fathers, (MLV2017)

 

Do you think that deacon was a better translation in this context?

 

 

Php 1:1  Scroll 40 Epistle to the Philippians.
Paul, and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the Saints in Christ Jesus who being in Philippi,
with the bishops and deacons. (RHB8)

 

Php 1:1  Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: (KJV)

Php 1:1  Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, to all the holy-ones in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons {1Ti 3, *** 1}: (MLV2017)

 

 

As you see: even the MLV2017 did not follow "one English word for one Greek word" while it is a part of its translation philosophy.

And this is the reason why the MLV2017 has never the word "Angel" because it is always translated as one word: "messenger".

So if you reject the MLV2017 for not having "Angel" is it because it follow the "one English word for one Greek word" philosophy.

 

 

G4166 shepherd vs pastor:

 

(note the word sheep: no English translation use the word pastor in Mat 9:36)

 

Mat 9:36  But having seen the multitudes, He has compassion on them,
              because they were faint, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. (RHB8)

 

Eph 4:11  And He gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some shepherds[pastors] and teachers; (RHB8)

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (KJV)

Eph 4:11  And he gave some to be: the apostles, and the prophets, and the evangelists, and the shepherds and teachers  (MLV2017)

 

 

For shepherds[pastors] is it easy because G4166 is anywhere else translated as shepherd or shepherds. (so I did follow the "one English for one Greek word" rule)

The [ ] is used as interpretation.

And the word pastor means shepherd.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pastor

 

The problem with overseer vs bishop fix I in the next edition of the RHB.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/bishop

Edited by Katoog, 17 July 2018 - 03:31 AM.

[xlateitall]

Yes, Katoog, you are demonstrating the issue - a lack of consistency in translation.  Appears to be a common practice.

 

But I am concerned that my original request is being obscured here.

 

Here it is again...

 

Now, back to my reason for posting. I do not consider the topic of my post to be Bible interpretations, but rather the search for a trusty, consistent translation.

 

Perhaps the text I described is beyond the capabilities of a module. But, aren't there building blocks available that can assist me in the module creation process? Any tables of data that I can edit without starting completely from scratch? Anyone willing to share a Greek Septuagint and Majority Text file that contain book, chapter, verse, Greek word, Greek primary, morphology, English gloss, Strong's number? I expect I will also need a Strong's file, expanded for Old Testament words, and a morphological table.

 

Maybe my goal is an automated translation, one where I may edit the dictionary as I study. Perhaps our Father in heaven will be pleased to give to me this request. I would hope that I would share such a gift with others.

 

This is the topic I would like to focus on.

[Tj Higgins]

Yes, Katoog, you are demonstrating the issue - a lack of consistency in translation.  Appears to be a common practice.

 

But I am concerned that my original request is being obscured here.

 

Here it is again...

 

Now, back to my reason for posting. I do not consider the topic of my post to be Bible interpretations, but rather the search for a trusty, consistent translation.

 

Perhaps the text I described is beyond the capabilities of a module. But, aren't there building blocks available that can assist me in the module creation process? Any tables of data that I can edit without starting completely from scratch? Anyone willing to share a Greek Septuagint and Majority Text file that contain book, chapter, verse, Greek word, Greek primary, morphology, English gloss, Strong's number? I expect I will also need a Strong's file, expanded for Old Testament words, and a morphological table.

 

Maybe my goal is an automated translation, one where I may edit the dictionary as I study. Perhaps our Father in heaven will be pleased to give to me this request. I would hope that I would share such a gift with others.

 

This is the topic I would like to focus on.

You might want to check out a book called: Earliest New Testament Translations An Interlinear Comparison in Modern English by Clayton G. Porter

 

The book compares the entire New Testament from 6 early English bible translations you can download a pdf of the book from this link:

http://www.genevabib..._Comparison.pdf

Edited by Tj Higgins, 17 July 2018 - 09:25 AM.

[Kate53]

You may also like to look at the Greek to Hebrew Dictionary by Jeff Benner. I find it extremely helpful with my studies when wanting to find the way that the original word was used.

[djmarko53]

Well, you might be on to something there!  Wonder what e-Sword Users think of the following Translation by Kenneth Wuest.... It's from Hebrews Chapter One...

 

In many parts and in different ways of old, God having spoken to the fathers by means of the prophets, in the last of these days spoke to us in One who in character is (His) Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ages; who, being the out-raying (effulgence) of His glory and the exact reproduction of His essence, and sustaining, guiding, and propelling all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; having become as much superior to the angels as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

 

For to which of the angels did He say at any time, Son of mine thou art, I this day have begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him for a Father, and He Himself shall be to Me for a Son? And whenever He shall have brought again the first-begotten into the inhabited earth, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him. And with reference to the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels winds, and His servants a flame of fire. And with reference to the Son; Thy throne, 0 God, is forever and ever. And the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of His kingdom. Thou didst love righteousness and didst hate lawlessness. On this account there has anointed thee, God, Thy God, with the oil of exultant joy above thy associates. As for thee, in the beginning, 0 Lord, thou didst lay the foundation of the earth. And the works of thy hands are the heavens. They themselves shall perish, but as for thee, thou dost remain permanently. And all these shall become old and worn out as a garment. And as a garment which one throws about one's self shall they be rolled up; as a garment also shall they be changed. But as for thee, thou art the same, and thy years shall not leave off. But to which of the angels did He say at any time, Be sitting at my right hand until I set your enemies down as the footstool of your feet? Are not they all ministering servants sent on a commission for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?

Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament 

[Katoog]

Well, you might be on to something there!  Wonder what e-Sword Users think of the following Translation by Kenneth Wuest.... It's from Hebrews Chapter One...

 

In many parts and in different ways of old, God having spoken to the fathers by means of the prophets, in the last of these days spoke to us in One who in character is (His) Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the ages; who, being the out-raying (effulgence) of His glory and the exact reproduction of His essence, and sustaining, guiding, and propelling all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; having become as much superior to the angels as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

 

For to which of the angels did He say at any time, Son of mine thou art, I this day have begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him for a Father, and He Himself shall be to Me for a Son? And whenever He shall have brought again the first-begotten into the inhabited earth, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him. And with reference to the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels winds, and His servants a flame of fire. And with reference to the Son; Thy throne, 0 God, is forever and ever. And the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of His kingdom. Thou didst love righteousness and didst hate lawlessness. On this account there has anointed thee, God, Thy God, with the oil of exultant joy above thy associates. As for thee, in the beginning, 0 Lord, thou didst lay the foundation of the earth. And the works of thy hands are the heavens. They themselves shall perish, but as for thee, thou dost remain permanently. And all these shall become old and worn out as a garment. And as a garment which one throws about one's self shall they be rolled up; as a garment also shall they be changed. But as for thee, thou art the same, and thy years shall not leave off. But to which of the angels did He say at any time, Be sitting at my right hand until I set your enemies down as the footstool of your feet? Are not they all ministering servants sent on a commission for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation?

Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament 

A pretty literal translation but forced language for doctrinal Godhead reason?

spoke ελαλησεν^G2980 us ημιν^G2254 in/by εν^G1722 Son υιω^G5207

spoke to us in One who in character is (His) Son=spoke to us by His Son

 

Why using three definitions?

^upholding φερων^{G5342 V-PAP-NSM}

sustaining, guiding, and propelling=upholding

 

^ministering λειτουργικα ^{G3010 A-NPN spirits} πνευματα ^{G4151 N-NPN}

ministering servants=ministering spirits

 

The rest of the translation is pretty good:

___

For the Topic maker:

The SECE dictionary is close by the one English word for one Greek word philosophy.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (Enhanced)

 

But keep in your mind that there is no excuse for mistranslating those words from one English word for one Greek AND Greek primacy viewpoint.

 

G5547

Χριστός (Christós｜khris-tos'｜proper noun｜person｜Christ)

 

G3323

Μεσσίας (Messías｜mes-see'-as｜proper noun｜person｜Messiah)

 

G4396

προφήτης (prophḗtēs｜prof-ay'-tace｜noun｜prophet)

 

G4864

συναγωγή (synagōgḗ｜soon-ag-o-gay'｜noun｜synagogue)

 

G386

ἀνάστασις (anástasis｜an-as'-tas-is｜noun｜resurrection)

 

Edited by Katoog, 21 July 2018 - 10:13 AM.

[APsit190]

Just thought to let you guys know that this discussion does not belong in this section, and should be taken over to http://www.biblesupp...study-material/.

 

Blessings,