20 replies to this topic

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Sorry again, I guess this forum doesn't notify me if someone responds, and I get busy and forget to check it very often.

Edited by CitizenoftheRealm, 12 January 2020 - 09:01 PM.

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Where are these "real manuscripts" they used? Also have you found any proof that Olivetan was a Waldensian? The preface, which seems to have been written by him, has him saying to Farel and Saunier, "I remember quite well how you...set off three years ago to visit the Christian Churches..." But then later seems to include him in the group, "in our midst...we could not...our brothers..." I have searched several articles and books [Societa di Storia Valdese Bollettino Commemorativo del Sinodo di Cianforan, Giovanni Calvino e la Riforma in Italia "Calvino e la Bibbia di Olivetano",  Le Livre & Ses Secrets, "9. La Bible d'Olivetan" to name a few] and it seems like most people say that he was not a Waldensian, but afterwards may have joined them. It is true that the Waldenses paid for the work to be done, and then they also had to pay to buy copies of it. Anyway, it would be nice to have the Olivetan on e-Sword as well.

 

Have a great day!

Sorry again, I guess this forum doesn't notify me if someone responds, and I get busy and forget to check it very often.

 

The manuscripts I'm still trying to find. I can only go by the text of the Bibles that come from them. From what Wylie says in History of Protestantism, there are at least 6 of these Waldensian Bibles in different libraries in Europe.

 

I do not know exactly "how" Olivetan was a Waldensian - I just understand that he was a Waldensian as far as his beliefs are concerned, and that he was intimately associated with them. It seems that his family had ties to the Waldensian valleys.

 

"Four Bibles produced under Waldensian influence touched the history of Calvin: namely, a Greek, a Waldensian vernacular, a French, and an Italian. Calvin himself was led to his great work by Olivetan, a Waldensian. Thus was the Reformation brought to Calvin, that brilliant student of the Paris University. Farel, also a Waldensian, besought him to come to Geneva and open up a work there. Calvin felt that he should labor in Paris. According to Leger, Calvin recognized a relationship to the Calvins of the valley of St. Martin, one of the Waldensian Valleys." Our Authorized Bible Vindicated p.37 (Footnote: Leger, History of the Vaudois, p. 167)

 

One thing I've found while researching the Waldenses, is that many of the modern Waldensians don't have any memory of their ancestors and they don't have a clue about their awesome history. Many of their institution have now been infiltrated by Rome's agents and there is a concerted effort being made to either erase their history or to insert Rome's disinformation to undermine their glorious heritage. When I contacted the Waldensian Cultural Center in Italy searching for one of their manuscripts, I suspicion that I actually reached one of Rome's agents, because of the rude response I received. They basically brushed me off and acted like they didn't know anything about the manuscript.

The Waldensian group in Valdese NC are basically so modernized, they didn't really know any of the basics of their history, and couldn't help me.

The world was swept off its feet when the Pope kissed the supposed Waldensian Bible in 2015 - but what they didn't tell people was that the Bible he kissed was not one of the original Waldensian Bibles that Rome hates, but an inter-confessional Bible that was approved by the Vatican.

The books you mentioned - Are they in PDF - Do you have any links to where I can find them? Would like to check them out.

Just for the record, I have to sort of analyse and study the various books I find on Waldensian history. Some of the "old books" that I've found on Waldensian history, also appear to be written by Rome's agents and filled with disinformation.

Leger's book is extremely accurate Waldensian history, but one of the other supposed "Waldensian" history books (supposedly written by a professor at one of their institutions), was rather derogatory of Leger - telling me that it was put out by an infiltrator. 

 

I totally agree, would love to see an E-Sword module of the original Olivetan Bible.

Thought about doing one myself, but I haven't gotten around to it, and I don't have a fluent talent in French (not to mention that it is old French which is different than modern French).

 

You have a great day as well!

Edited by CitizenoftheRealm, 12 January 2020 - 09:02 PM.

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Ahh - Think I just figured out how to make it notify me - we'll see if that works.

[chrisyetzer]

One resource you can find online that might help is this: The Romaunt Version of the Gospel According to St. John. by William Gilly.

 

[CitizenoftheRealm]

One resource you can find online that might help is this: The Romaunt Version of the Gospel According to St. John. by William Gilly.

Well, so much for getting it to notify me - it still doesn't work - just happened to visit the page again and see your comment by accident. Oh well - I'm just going to have to try to remember to visit more often.

Thanks for the heads up about the Romaunt of the book of John from Gilly - that is a great find!

Now if we could just find the rest of the Romaunt text - it has to exist somewhere out there, but so far, I haven't been able to locate it yet.

[APsit190]

Well, so much for getting it to notify me - it still doesn't work - just happened to visit the page again and see your comment by accident. Oh well - I'm just going to have to try to remember to visit more often.

Thanks for the heads up about the Romaunt of the book of John from Gilly - that is a great find!

Now if we could just find the rest of the Romaunt text - it has to exist somewhere out there, but so far, I haven't been able to locate it yet.

Trust this will help you.

 

Blessings,

Edited by APsit190, 04 July 2021 - 06:53 PM.

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Trust this will help you.

 

Blessings,

Well Thank You so much for the tutorial! Sorry it took me so long to find it. I haven't been on here in a long time, and they obviously didn't notify me again. I just watched your tutorial, and followed your instructions and found that the email box wasn't checked. So I've checked that - hopefully it will work now. Thanks again. God Bless.

[ukeleleAyelbourne]

Hello, anyone still checking this thread Itala Bible Waldensian?

Please keep us posted if there are any new & "safe" links to read old Itala Bible.

A late deacon Richard Close who often jumped to conclusions, assumed that a study of Matthew 11:30 done by Frank Nelte is factual enough to re-post to his church despite how Frank Nelte claims the Matt 11:30 phrase "my yoke is easy & my burden is light" was corrupted by Vulgate and "should have" been translated as : my yoke is (chrestos)"good/kind/better" and my burden is (elauno)"driven with effort as rowing a boat".

Mr. Nelte & then Mr. Close claim(ed) that Strong's G1645 elaphron/"light, easy" is SO MUCH AKIN to Strong's G1643 elauno/"driven with effort", that G1643 elauno is "actually" what Jesus MEANT instead of Strong's G1645 elaphron, in Matt 11:30.

Those 2 men avoid how Strong's says elauno is ONLY "akin" to elaphron, & not freely interchangeable.

I can see that chrestos/Strong's G5543 makes sense to be put onto "my yoke is good/kind" instead of "my yoke is easy", but Nelte in 2021 & then later Close in 2022 seem off base to switch "my burden is light (G1645 elephron)" into (their opinion of meaning) rather : "my burden is driven (G1643 elauno).

I would like to keep seeking the Itala Bible from Waldensians or Papyrus 62 or any early truths of actual Matt 11:30, to see if Mr. Nelte & Mr. Close were jumping to conclusions unwisely (or not) when they claim Jesus's burden & lifestyle for us is NOT light but a "driven struggle" (elauno vs. elaphron)!

The Waldensian Bible may show pre-Vulgate in order to settle whether Nelte & Close have permission they "think" they had, on maybe changing Jesus' own words around! Mr. Close passed away soon after pressing onto us, of this possibly rude study he copied from Mr. Nelte.

I also hope to compare Papyrus 62 Matt 11:30 early Greek with this dilemma brought to us by Nelte & Close. I have already been trying that, by using cut/paste of current Greek Matt 11:30 into screenshots superimposed next to the fragments Wikipedia shows of Oslo Library collections of Papyrus 62/Matt 11:30. Fragments are hard so far to see any hint of either "elaphron", or "elauno".

An Overseer Pastor of a church has visited Vatican City & I almost wonder if he tried to study the locked away collections of Itala (Waldensian pre-Vulgate) Bible, but must have not been able to see it.

Can anyone post here soon if they know how to see or study or download the Itala Bible of Waldensians? Or also of tips how to study Papyrus 62 or anything even earlier than that...the earliest possible pen marks from Apostle Matthew himself?

I want to see if Jesus meant "my yoke is easy/good and my burden is light" or if He meant "my burden is driven effort".

But to Mr. Nelte & (would have been to) Mr. Close, Strong's says G1645 elaphron IS ONLY AKIN, to, G1643 elauno...they are likely NOT WILLY-NILLY interchangeble!

Answer may be in Waldensian Itala Bible? thanks.

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Hello, anyone still checking this thread Itala Bible Waldensian?

Please keep us posted if there are any new & "safe" links to read old Itala Bible.

A late deacon Richard Close who often jumped to conclusions, assumed that a study of Matthew 11:30 done by Frank Nelte is factual enough to re-post to his church despite how Frank Nelte claims the Matt 11:30 phrase "my yoke is easy & my burden is light" was corrupted by Vulgate and "should have" been translated as : my yoke is (chrestos)"good/kind/better" and my burden is (elauno)"driven with effort as rowing a boat".

Mr. Nelte & then Mr. Close claim(ed) that Strong's G1645 elaphron/"light, easy" is SO MUCH AKIN to Strong's G1643 elauno/"driven with effort", that G1643 elauno is "actually" what Jesus MEANT instead of Strong's G1645 elaphron, in Matt 11:30.

Those 2 men avoid how Strong's says elauno is ONLY "akin" to elaphron, & not freely interchangeable.

I can see that chrestos/Strong's G5543 makes sense to be put onto "my yoke is good/kind" instead of "my yoke is easy", but Nelte in 2021 & then later Close in 2022 seem off base to switch "my burden is light (G1645 elephron)" into (their opinion of meaning) rather : "my burden is driven (G1643 elauno).

I would like to keep seeking the Itala Bible from Waldensians or Papyrus 62 or any early truths of actual Matt 11:30, to see if Mr. Nelte & Mr. Close were jumping to conclusions unwisely (or not) when they claim Jesus's burden & lifestyle for us is NOT light but a "driven struggle" (elauno vs. elaphron)!

The Waldensian Bible may show pre-Vulgate in order to settle whether Nelte & Close have permission they "think" they had, on maybe changing Jesus' own words around! Mr. Close passed away soon after pressing onto us, of this possibly rude study he copied from Mr. Nelte.

I also hope to compare Papyrus 62 Matt 11:30 early Greek with this dilemma brought to us by Nelte & Close. I have already been trying that, by using cut/paste of current Greek Matt 11:30 into screenshots superimposed next to the fragments Wikipedia shows of Oslo Library collections of Papyrus 62/Matt 11:30. Fragments are hard so far to see any hint of either "elaphron", or "elauno".

An Overseer Pastor of a church has visited Vatican City & I almost wonder if he tried to study the locked away collections of Itala (Waldensian pre-Vulgate) Bible, but must have not been able to see it.

Can anyone post here soon if they know how to see or study or download the Itala Bible of Waldensians? Or also of tips how to study Papyrus 62 or anything even earlier than that...the earliest possible pen marks from Apostle Matthew himself?

I want to see if Jesus meant "my yoke is easy/good and my burden is light" or if He meant "my burden is driven effort".

But to Mr. Nelte & (would have been to) Mr. Close, Strong's says G1645 elaphron IS ONLY AKIN, to, G1643 elauno...they are likely NOT WILLY-NILLY interchangeble!

Answer may be in Waldensian Itala Bible? thanks.

Hi Ukelele, I don't usually log on and check this thread, but my email notified me that someone commented, so I checked it.

No, I have not found the Waldensian Itala yet - powers-that-be have seemed to make sure it is not available for the common man to find. Though I have found other Waldensian Bibles, so I think I can at least partially answer your question.

My advice as far as the two individuals that you mentioned is that they sound rather "higher critical" to me, and I would recommend steering clear of their materials. Any time someone starts "redefining" what the plain and simple Word of God says, I see red flags. God's Word is simple enough for the common man to understand! God (and Jesus) says exactly what He means in the KJV English. It is the "higher critics" that start undermining God's Word and saying things like, "This or that is not translated right..." or "What it really meant to say..." 

They also like to refer back to the LXX - but there were 3 different Septuagints - 2 that were corrupted and only 1 that was correct - and the LXX that is used today was one of the corrupted ones. You can read about some of this history as well as the various Bible translations in this PDF book https://archive.org/...word-unsheathed

As for Matthew 11:30, Yes, the original KJV translators translated that verse accurately - just as they did all the others. Every single KJV translator was fluent in 4 languages (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English) and many of them knew and were fluent in others as well. They were more knowledgeable and proficient than any scholar alive today. And on top of that, they had access to many manuscripts and reference materials that we either don't have or have forgotten about today.

With Matthew 11:30  it reads, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (or it's equivalent) in every single pure-line Bible from every language I've checked - including the Bohemian Tepl Bible (which is a Waldensian Bible) and the Olivetan Bible (which was an old French Bible translation that was made by the Waldensians as a gift for the Protestant Reformation.) You can find these Bibles, as well as other pure-line Bibles, posted on this site. Hope that helps. God Bless.

[ukeleleAyelbourne]

THANK YOU CitizenoftheRealm for responding, & I will avoid trusting what those 2 chaps wrote about switching Jesus' words in Matt 11:30.

here are links to their odd "higher critic" posts

https://youtu.be/WRF...?feature=shared
(from Frank Nelte 2021)


https://youtu.be/WRF...?feature=shared
(from Richard Close 2022)