20 replies to this topic

[CitizenoftheRealm]

Wondering if anyone out there has access to an old "Itala" Bible. That would be a nice addition to E-sword! The Itala Bible was the Bible that was protected by the Waldensians through the Dark Ages - the one that they died for. It was the one that they used to translate their other Bibles (The Romaunt, The Tepl).

If anyone can get their hands on any of these old Bibles - we'd love to have them added to E-sword!

[APsit190]

Wondering if anyone out there has access to an old "Itala" Bible. That would be a nice addition to E-sword! The Itala Bible was the Bible that was protected by the Waldensians through the Dark Ages - the one that they died for. It was the one that they used to translate their other Bibles (The Romaunt, The Tepl).

If anyone can get their hands on any of these old Bibles - we'd love to have them added to E-sword!

I just did a search for pdf or some other text form of this Bible to download, but have come up with nothing. If you have knowledge of where it can be downloaded from and share it, this would be really helpful.

 

Blessings,

[CitizenoftheRealm]

I've found probably over a hundred different history books, documents, websites, and other influential and authoritative sources that talk about the Waldensian Bibles - the Itala, the Tepl, and the Romaunt - but after almost 2 years of searching the internet - I haven't been able to find a single source for these Bibles - either a facsimile or just the typed text of them. I am beginning to think that some sinister force has collected them up and "made them disappear!" It is very obvious, from some of the rude answers that I've gotten from questions asked to certain "authorities" that they do exist - but that they don't want the public to have access to them. They seem to have "hidden" them in library storage rooms or something - out of sight from us commoners.

There seems that there might be some "hard" copies hidden in some top libraries in Europe, but when I tried to search their websites - they demand I produce the right credentials that would entitle me to access their records. In other words, if a researcher isn't "one of them" then you can't have access. Very discouraging! But I just keep looking! I'm convinced that God has one hidden out there that they have overlooked and we'll find it at some point.

[Lorin Thomason]

if you've studied into the pre-revisionists history of the world, you know that the vatican and its agents were the foremost enemies of the Waldenses, Albigenses, and anyone else true to the "WAY" and pre-paganised "Christianity", etc.  and they would often burn any Bibles and any parchment pieces they could steal from these keepers of the True faith, as well as torturing and burning them at the stake.  so i'm sure that the vatican library may indeed have at least one of these Bibles you allude to.  and may be the very people you mentioned that are standing in your way of achieving your goal.   prior to 400-500ad there were Bibles translated into some 500 different languages, but after the end of 500ad there was only ONE language and that was latin and those Bibles were changed to catholic pulpits and monastaries walls.  only in the east, out of the reach of the roman empire's grasp were Bibles still available in the languages of the people.  supposedly only one non-catholic and member of another denomination has ever been allowed unrestricted access to the vatican libraries.  one samuelle bacciochii(sp).  and i have reservations as to his true identity as a "non-catholic/non-jesuit".  but that just personal opinion.

[CitizenoftheRealm]

if you've studied into the pre-revisionists history of the world, you know that the vatican and its agents were the foremost enemies of the Waldenses, Albigenses, and anyone else true to the "WAY" and pre-paganised "Christianity", etc.  and they would often burn any Bibles and any parchment pieces they could steal from these keepers of the True faith, as well as torturing and burning them at the stake.  so i'm sure that the vatican library may indeed have at least one of these Bibles you allude to.  and may be the very people you mentioned that are standing in your way of achieving your goal.   prior to 400-500ad there were Bibles translated into some 500 different languages, but after the end of 500ad there was only ONE language and that was latin and those Bibles were changed to catholic pulpits and monastaries walls.  only in the east, out of the reach of the roman empire's grasp were Bibles still available in the languages of the people.  supposedly only one non-catholic and member of another denomination has ever been allowed unrestricted access to the vatican libraries.  one samuelle bacciochii(sp).  and i have reservations as to his true identity as a "non-catholic/non-jesuit".  but that just personal opinion.

Right-on! You got it!! 

[Rpann7]

This is a long time later, but I just noticed your post. I just saw, in a documentary, a waldensian Bible. It may not be the Itala, but it will certainly be from the Itala. It was in a museum.

Edited by Rpann7, 30 December 2017 - 02:34 AM.

[Jim Bob]

I recently saw some research that was being done on an old commentary that quoted from old Italian. That is, Latin older than Jerome's Vulgate. I haven't studied it in depth myself, but I've wondered whether it could be representative of the old Itala. It's not the Bible itself, but the commentary which quotes from it. It's not the perfect answer, but it is fascinating. You can find it here:

 

https://www.degruyte.../product/469498

 

Of course, a lot of folks are distracted by the commentary, and think that is what's so great about this find. The commentary is largely allegorical in approach, which is not surprising for the time and place of its production. The commentary is entirely tertiary to this discovery.

I've been considering doing a comparison study between the quoted portions of the Bible to Jerome's Vulgate and the foundational Greek, but haven't taken the time, yet.

[chrisyetzer]

I know this is several years later, but there are some digitized copies of the old Latin on the web. "Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae" Unfortunately, I don't think the Waldensian Bibles were based on this. You can check it out for yourself though.

Here are a few interesting readings,

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east

Valdese - lo solelh [the sun]

 

Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled...

Valdese - Et erat Joseph et Maria mirantes

 

John 1:1

Provencaux manuscript B.N. fr. 6261, "En lo comensamen era lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] e lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] era ma Dieu."

 

John 12:13

Provencaux, "Salva nos, [save us] filh de David!"

Valdese codex Teplensis, "Dicent al filh de David: Fay nos salf! [save us]"

 

As a note, the idea taught by Otis Fuller and others that the text passed to the Olivetan and then to Diodati is wrong. Olivetan was not even a Waldensian and most likely didn't even know their language. Plus in the preface he clearly says he based it on Hebrew and Greek, not their manuscripts.

 

Have a great day!

[CitizenoftheRealm]

I know this is several years later, but there are some digitized copies of the old Latin on the web. "Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae" Unfortunately, I don't think the Waldensian Bibles were based on this. You can check it out for yourself though.

Here are a few interesting readings,

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east

Valdese - lo solelh [the sun]

 

Luke 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled...

Valdese - Et erat Joseph et Maria mirantes

 

John 1:1

Provencaux manuscript B.N. fr. 6261, "En lo comensamen era lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] e lo Filh de Dieu [Son of God] era ma Dieu."

 

John 12:13

Provencaux, "Salva nos, [save us] filh de David!"

Valdese codex Teplensis, "Dicent al filh de David: Fay nos salf! [save us]"

 

As a note, the idea taught by Otis Fuller and others that the text passed to the Olivetan and then to Diodati is wrong. Olivetan was not even a Waldensian and most likely didn't even know their language. Plus in the preface he clearly says he based it on Hebrew and Greek, not their manuscripts.

 

Have a great day!

 

Sorry, I just now discovered your comment.

Thanks for the info on Bibliorum Sacrorum latinae versiones antiguae. Unfortunately, you are correct. This is not solely based on pure manuscripts. One way you can check it out for yourself, is to look at Revelation 8:13. In this manuscript, it uses the word "aquile" (eagle) instead of the word for "angel". The use of the word "eagle" instead of "angel" goes back to the corrupted manuscripts that Eusebius made for Constantine in 331 AD. The pure line manuscripts used the word "angel". 

Basically, in all my years of researching, I have found that if the manuscript uses the word "eagle" in this verse, it is proof that the manuscript was at least partially influenced by corrupted manuscripts (if not entirely based on them)! The real manuscripts that the Waldensians used were based on the pure manuscripts and used "angel".

 

I am not familiar with whatever Otis Fuller promotes about the Olivetan Bible, but Pierre Robert Olivétan was indeed a pastor of the Waldenses. He was John Calvin's cousin and was instrumental in converting John Calvin to the Protestant faith. Yes, Olivetan's French Bible was based on the Hebrew and Greek originals - but that doesn't mean it did not have Vaudois influence! It was the Waldenses themselves who collected money to pay for the Olivetan Bible to be produced and printed (the sum of 1500 gold crowns).

The Olivetan Bible was the gift of the Waldenses to the Protestant Reformation. In fact, the Waldensians, true to their experience of having to work quietly and undercover to prevent Rome's agents from finding and killing them, even hid their mark in the Bible itself.

If you look on the last page of the Olivetan Bible, there is a poem written titled Au Lecteur de la Bible.

This poem is an acrostic, and when you take the first letters of each word and put them together, it spells this dedication: “Les Vaudois, Peuple Evangelique, Ont mis ce Thresor en publique." which translated into English is "The Vaudois, that evangelical people, have given this treasure to the public.”

 

 

You have a great day as well, and keep up the good work researching the "Pure-line Bibles!"

[chrisyetzer]

The real manuscripts that the Waldensians used were based on the pure manuscripts and used "angel".

 

I am not familiar with whatever Otis Fuller promotes about the Olivetan Bible, but Pierre Robert Olivétan was indeed a pastor of the Waldenses. He was John Calvin's cousin and was instrumental in converting John Calvin to the Protestant faith. Yes, Olivetan's French Bible was based on the Hebrew and Greek originals - but that doesn't mean it did not have Vaudois influence! It was the Waldenses themselves who collected money to pay for the Olivetan Bible to be produced and printed (the sum of 1500 gold crowns).

The Olivetan Bible was the gift of the Waldenses to the Protestant Reformation. In fact, the Waldensians, true to their experience of having to work quietly and undercover to prevent Rome's agents from finding and killing them, even hid their mark in the Bible itself.

If you look on the last page of the Olivetan Bible, there is a poem written titled Au Lecteur de la Bible.

This poem is an acrostic, and when you take the first letters of each word and put them together, it spells this dedication: “Les Vaudois, Peuple Evangelique, Ont mis ce Thresor en publique." which translated into English is "The Vaudois, that evangelical people, have given this treasure to the public.”

 

Where are these "real manuscripts" they used? Also have you found any proof that Olivetan was a Waldensian? The preface, which seems to have been written by him, has him saying to Farel and Saunier, "I remember quite well how you...set off three years ago to visit the Christian Churches..." But then later seems to include him in the group, "in our midst...we could not...our brothers..." I have searched several articles and books [Societa di Storia Valdese Bollettino Commemorativo del Sinodo di Cianforan, Giovanni Calvino e la Riforma in Italia "Calvino e la Bibbia di Olivetano",  Le Livre & Ses Secrets, "9. La Bible d'Olivetan" to name a few] and it seems like most people say that he was not a Waldensian, but afterwards may have joined them. It is true that the Waldenses paid for the work to be done, and then they also had to pay to buy copies of it. Anyway, it would be nice to have the Olivetan on e-Sword as well.

 

Have a great day!