4 replies to this topic

[Dave Rogers]

As I was researching I am seeing there is a difference between the KJV+ bible module and the KJV+TVM module. It seems that the KJV+ follows the HOT+ and the KJV+TVM does not.

Can anyone shed some light on why the difference?

 

One of many examples I have found.

From KJV+
1Sa 14:28  Then answeredH6030 oneH376 of the people,H4480 H5971 and said,H559 Thy fatherH1 straitly charged the people with an oath,H7650 H7650 (H853) H5971 saying,H559 CursedH779 be the manH376 thatH834 eatethH398 any foodH3899 this day.H3117 And the peopleH5971 were faint.H5888
 

H5888:

BDB Definition:
1) to be faint, be weary
1a) (Qal) to be faint, be weary
 

From KJV+TVM
1Sa 14:28  Then answeredH6030 [H8799] oneH376 of the peopleH5971, and saidH559 [H8799], Thy fatherH1 straitlyH7650 [H8687] chargedH7650 the peopleH5971 with an oathH7650 [H8689], sayingH559 [H8800], CursedH779 [H8803] be the manH376 that eatethH398 [H8799] any foodH3899 this dayH3117. And the peopleH5971 were faintH5774 [H8799].

H5774:
BDB Definition:
1) to fly, fly about, fly away (verb)
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to fly, hover
1a2) to fly away

 

[Gary Timm]

The Hebrew words are quite similar... at least with this particular reference you've given. Take a look below at the similarities in the Hebrew spelling.

 

H5774
עוּף
 

H5888
עיף
 

It's pretty evident one of the sources is tainted... either by a computer programming glitch or human error in copying. I checked this against the ABP+ which get its source from the Greek LXX and it, also, designates the word "Faint (G1590)". The HOT+, however, designates this as H5774. Then again, the Strong's Concordance definition appears to include them both, H5744 AND H5888, as "fainted" or "weary".

 

Sorry... not sure if this was of much help, but it demonstrates the importance of multiple references.

 

Blessings...

[RonColling]

Remember that the Strong's is referencing its opinion of the root word.  The actual word is ויעף.

 

I dug out my Strong's book and it is H5774 in 1 SA 14:28 -- and in all the verses I've copied below.

 

The same word ויעף is used in the following verses.  I'm copying from the KJV+ to show the Strong's in the verses.  There does seem to be a discrepancy, although they have עף in common and are probably cognates.

 

 

 

Jdg 4:21  Then JaelH3278 Heber'sH2268 wifeH802 tookH3947 (H853) a nailH3489 of the tent,H168 and tookH7760 (H853) an hammerH4718 in her hand,H3027 and wentH935 softlyH3814 untoH413 him, and smoteH8628 (H853) the nailH3489 into his temples,H7541 and fastenedH6795 it into the ground:H776 for heH1931 was fast asleepH7290 and weary.H5774 So he died.H4191 

 

1Sa 14:28  Then answeredH6030 oneH376 of the people,H4480 H5971 and said,H559 Thy fatherH1 straitly charged the people with an oath,H7650 H7650 (H853) H5971 saying,H559 CursedH779 be the manH376 thatH834 eatethH398 any foodH3899 this day.H3117 And the peopleH5971 were faint.H5888 

 

1Sa 14:31  And they smoteH5221 the PhilistinesH6430 thatH1931 dayH3117 from MichmashH4480 H4363 to Aijalon:H357 and the peopleH5971 were veryH3966 faint.H5888 

 

2Sa 21:15  Moreover the PhilistinesH6430 hadH1961 yet warH4421 again withH854 Israel;H3478 and DavidH1732 went down,H3381 and his servantsH5650 withH5973 him, and fought againstH3898 (H853) the Philistines:H6430 and DavidH1732 waxed faint.H5774 

 

2Sa 22:11  And he rodeH7392 uponH5921 a cherub,H3742 and did fly:H5774 and he was seenH7200 uponH5921 the wingsH3671 of the wind.H7307 

 

Psa 18:10  And he rodeH7392 uponH5921 a cherub,H3742 and did fly:H5774 yea, he did flyH1675 uponH5921 the wingsH3671 of the wind.H7307 

 

Isa 6:6  Then flewH5774 oneH259 ofH4480 the seraphimsH8314 untoH413 me, having a live coalH7531 in his hand,H3027 which he had takenH3947 with the tongsH4457 from offH4480 H5921 the altar:H4196 

 

Hebrew (HOT+)

 

Jdg_4:21  ותקח יעל אשׁת־חבר את־יתד האהל ותשׂם את־המקבת בידה ותבוא אליו בלאט ותתקע את־היתד ברקתו ותצנח בארץ והוא־נרדם ויעף וימת׃ 

1Sa_14:28  ויען אישׁ מהעם ויאמר השׁבע השׁביע אביך את־העם לאמר ארור האישׁ אשׁר־יאכל לחם היום ויעף העם׃ 

1Sa_14:31  ויכו ביום ההוא בפלשׁתים ממכמשׂ אילנה ויעף העם מאד׃ 

2Sa_21:15  ותהי־עוד מלחמה לפלשׁתים את־ישׂראל וירד דוד ועבדיו עמו וילחמו את־פלשׁתים ויעף דוד׃ 

2Sa_22:11  וירכב על־כרוב ויעף וירא על־כנפי־רוח׃ 

Psa_18:10  (18:11) וירכב על־כרוב ויעף וידא על־כנפי־רוח׃ 

Isa_6:6   ויעף אלי אחד מן־השׂרפים ובידו רצפה במלקחים לקח מעל המזבח׃ 

[Eliran Wong]

I think it is better to check Hebrew manuscript, rather than discussion based on English and Greek. I appreciate RonColling found out the word is "ויעף", but I observed that the first letter "ו" is a conjunction and should be analyzed separately. The same Hebrew lexeme of the word are tagged with either "5888" or "5774" over the whole text of common English bibles with Strong's numbers (choice of the Strong's numbers varies even among big software companies in some verses). Please also note that Strong numbers system has its limitation ... not all the times has one-to-one correspondence with Hebrew lexeme

Edited by Eliran Wong, 24 January 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[Gary Timm]

I'll agree with everything discussed... including the necessity to research the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts... but I'd like to make one addition. The concept of the original Hebrew and/or Greek versions is most times missed. Mankind has given these original words different meanings, regardless of what language they are translated to. This is not the case. These words are based on a concept, and a single word (as found within most Bible translations) does not suffice. They actually require many words to complete the description.

 

A quick example within English is the word "refrigerator". Now most of us can automatically draw a connection because we understand its purpose and function. However, if we had to explain a refrigerator to a foreigner who had never used one prior, we would have to implement many words to give a description. "Big", "cold", "food", "preservation", and possibly even the word "worms" may used if we happen to be a fisherman. This is how God's Language works. It is a picture set within a concept describing a much larger scene... of which many times we never even care to imagine. But when we get this concept, it begins to open up Scripture as never before.

 

Regardless of our viewpoint, knowledge is never learned by ourselves. It can only come by the hand of God... and only then, with asking in humbleness.

 

Blessings to all...

Edited by Gary Timm, 24 January 2017 - 10:18 AM.