20 replies to this topic

[ImAtCSULA]

So I would like to begin with saying this is not an attempt to down talk the LSB (legacy standard bible) translation. However, I recently noticed that Rom 8:1 has been altered significantly in this translation and wanted to know what you guys thought. I feel the lack there-of is kind a big deal.

Thanks,

James

Edited by ImAtCSULA, 24 October 2022 - 12:29 PM.

[ImAtCSULA]

Please forgive my elementary understanding of how bible translation is undertaken. I have just now noticed that several other, well known translations have also altered this verse in relation to what I read in the KJV.

Thanks!

[gad4]

https://carm.org/kin...-romans-81-kjv/

I found this reference online.

The short explanation is that while most greek documents have the long verse, some early documents have a short and medium length verse. Some feel that the earlier couple is more valuable than the quantity documents.

Regardless,the thought from romans 8.1 continues into rom 8 4 and the condition is listed there.

It is safe to use the kjv.

Edited by gad4, 24 October 2022 - 06:05 PM.

[APsit190]

https://carm.org/kin...-romans-81-kjv/

I found this reference online.

The short explanation is that while most greek documents have the long verse, some early documents have a short and medium length verse. Some feel that the earlier couple is more valuable than the quantity documents.

Regardless,the thought from romans 8.1 continues into rom 8 4 and the condition is listed there.

It is safe to use the kjv.

About as safe as any other translation/version. It's really up to you as its all pretty much subjective as to what anyone likes to think.

 

I have the KJV, but barely use it. My go for translation is the NKJV and find it to be pretty good.

 

Blessings,

[Katoog]

The second part of the verse "who walking not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." is a textual variant.
And is the same Greek text as the second part Rom 8:4  "μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα"

The second part of Rom 8:1 is supported by the Textus Receptus and Byzantine
While the Critical Text omits it.

The Vulgate has supports "who walking not according to the flesh."

The LSB is based on NA28/UBS5 that is a Critical Text.
I support the Restored Textus Receptus.

Edited by Katoog, 25 October 2022 - 08:15 AM.

[Olaf Bacon]

It may help you, when you do in-depth Bible Study, to consult the very helpful notes of a translator who has personally investigated the Greek New Testament manuscripts and has discovered a manuscript family that can be followed throughout history. Both the translation and the notes are the responsibility of Wilbur N. Pickering, ThM PhD, ©, being based on his edition of the Greek New Testament, according to the only significant line of transmission, both ancient and independent, that has a demonstrable archetypal form in all 27 books. The Greek Text of which this is a translation, and articles explaining the preference, may be downloaded free from www.prunch.org.

Wilbur Pickering provides evidence for his Greek text with footnotes and provides access to his translation in the languages of Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, and English.

Wilbur Pickering's updated translation of each book of the New Testament is available in separate PDF files. Romans into English with footnotes can be accessed from the following link:
https://www.prunch.c...08/Romans-3.pdf

Wilbur Pickering's details of the evidence for the words in Greek will be found in the footnotes of the Greek text. The Greek N. T. according to family 35. Greek New Testament, Second Edition, with footnotes in English, is at https://www.prunch.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/F35-GNT.pdf Copyright © 2015 Wilbur N. Pickering. ISBN: 978-0-9898273-7-9
Deliverance
8 Οὐδὲν ἄρα νῦν κατάκριμα τοῖς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ Πνεῦμα,¹ 2 ὁ γὰρ νόμος τοῦ πνεύματος τῆς ζωῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠλευθέρωσέν με² ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου τῆς ἁμαρτίας καὶ τοῦ θανάτου. 3 Τὸ γὰρ ἀδύνατον τοῦ νόμου, ἐν ᾧ ἠσθένει διὰ τῆς σαρκός, ὁ Θεὸς τὸν ἑαυτοῦ Υἱὸν πέμψας ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ περὶ ἁμαρτίας: κατέκρινεν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν ἐν τῇ σαρκί, 4 ἵνα τὸ δικαίωμα τοῦ νόμου πληρωθῇ ἐν ἡμῖν τοῖς μὴ κατὰ σάρκα περιπατοῦσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ Πνεῦμα.

1 μη κατα σαρκα περιπατουσιν αλλα κατα πνευμα f³⁵ (94%) OC,RP,HF,TR,CP || variations on the long form (0.8%) || 1234 A (2.5%) || --- [aleph] B (2.3%) NU || two other readings (0.3%)
2 με f³⁵ A,C [98%] OC,RP,HF,TR,CP || σε [aleph] B [1%] NU || three other variants [1%]

RP = Robinson-Pierpont (2005), HF = Hodges-Farstad, OC = the text of the Orthodox Churches, TR = Textus Receptus, CP = Complutensian Polyglot, NU = N-A²⁶/UBS³ (N-A²⁷/UBS⁴ offer changes in the critical apparatus, not in the text; the text is still that of N-A²⁶/UBS³).

Wilbur Pickering's translation of Romans 8:1, 2, 3, and 4 in English:

[Deliverance]
8.1 Now then, there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit,⁴ 2 because the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus has set me⁵ free from the law of the sin and the death. 3 Further, what the law could not do, in that it was weak due to the flesh, God has done by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned the sin in the flesh,¹ 4 so that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Wilbur Pickering's footnote comments in his latest English translation of Romans 8:1, 2, 3, 4 are as follows:
4 “Who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” is omitted by 2.3% of the Greek manuscripts (of inferior quality, objectively so), to be followed by NIV, NASB, TEV, LB, etc. Those who follow the 2.3% like to claim that the clause was imported from verse four. But Paul is a Jew, and they like to repeat things. In 7:14-23 Paul described the conflict of the two natures within himself—he was not ‘home free’. That he is not through with the topic is clear from 8:5-17, where he describes in detail the conflict between flesh and Spirit. The reader may rest assured that the 97% are correct. Anyone who insists on walking according to the flesh will discover that there is indeed condemnation.
5 Less than 1% of the Greek manuscripts read ‘you’ singular, to be followed by NASB and LB. But ‘you’ in English is ambiguous as to number, and neither NASB nor LB tells the reader that ‘you’ is singular (because in the context it is obviously wrong). Both versions favor the reader with a footnote informing that “some” manuscripts read “me” [their way of referring to 700 against 4, which to my mind is a dishonest use of language].
1 The sin in our flesh having been condemned, it is now possible to walk according to the Spirit.

If you come across any errors in the text or apparatus, please contact: Wilbur Pickering wilbur.pickering@gmail.com or Dwayne Green dgreen@cspmt.org

Edited by Olaf Bacon, 04 November 2022 - 04:47 AM.

[djmarko53]

Don't know if anyone mentioned it or not.  But the LSB is the latest update of the New
American Standard Bible.  The Words "New American" being replaced by the word "Legacy"
Actually, it is not a bad translation, although it takes some getting used to the Word "LORD"
in capital letters, being replaced with "Yahweh" throughout this version.

 

I have already converted the LSB for use with "SwordSearcher"  Might see if I can convert
that to "e-Sword" format, since i already have it for LOGOS.  LOGOS had it for $4.99 and
that was hard to resist.  It is available online thru the "Blue Letter Bible" website.

My versions of choice are KJV, NKJV, ESV, and the NASB.  Not sure about the LSB yet.
Tried to use it for a reading at church and did not imipress very many.  Probably because
Lockman Foundation in their "Iinfinite Wisdom" decided to change "LORD" to "Yahweh."
For some reason it is somewhat different trying to wrap my mind around this change.

 

As far as the KJV, it was OK for the time in 1611, but now?  With all the more recent
manuscripts available that they didn't have back then?  KJV I believe is a revision of
the "Bishop's Bible" which came out over 50 years before the KJV.

Which prompts me to ask the Lockman Foundation, "Why try to reinvent the wheel?"

 

djmarko53
https://djmarko53.wi...es/commentaries
 

[Olaf Bacon]

  Probably because Lockman Foundation in their "Iinfinite Wisdom" decided to change "LORD" to "Yahweh."

For some reason it is somewhat different trying to wrap my mind around this change.

 

Which prompts me to ask the Lockman Foundation, "Why try to reinvent the wheel?"

 

djmarko53
https://djmarko53.wi...es/commentaries
 

Why the Legacy Standard Bible Translates "Yahweh" in the Old Testament. https://youtu.be/2hFKPHZL5qI
2021/02/27 · by Legacy Standard Bible
Dr. ABNER CHOU, Professor and John F. MacArthur Fellow, The Master's University, one of the translators of the Legacy Standard Bible. in discussion with Dr. IOSIF ZHAKEVICH, Associate Professor of Old Testament, The Master's Seminary.

[APsit190]

Why the Legacy Standard Bible Translates "Yahweh" in the Old Testament. https://youtu.be/2hFKPHZL5qI
2021/02/27 · by Legacy Standard Bible
Dr. ABNER CHOU, Professor and John F. MacArthur Fellow, The Master's University, one of the translators of the Legacy Standard Bible. in discussion with Dr. IOSIF ZHAKEVICH, Associate Professor of Old Testament, The Master's Seminary.

Olaf,

When you see a question like, "Why try to reinvent the wheel?" is the kind of question which isn't a question that requires an answer. The question is both satirical and rhetorical, of which when such a person asks something like that, he (or she) is actually challenging legitimacy or the purpose of doing something which as been already done or accomplished, and by it being satirical makes what the person is doing as both pointless and ludicrous.

 

So, let's see what djmarko was getting at when he asked that satirical and rhetorical question.

1. The first thing he pointed out was that the LSB is the latest update of the NASB.
2. Then he pointed out that the "New American" bit has been replaced with the word "Legacy."
3. Finally, all that was basically done in the LSB (pka NASB) was to just have the word "Yahweh" replace the word "LORD" in it, and hail it as a new translation.

So, basically what this really came down to is instead of putting out a brand new "translation" (which is the metaphorical reinvention of the wheel), why not just publish a new edition of the NASB, of which would contain the work "Yahweh" in it.

 

So, the crazy thing is this, by you highlighting the video actually proves the point that djmarko made with is rhetorical and satirical "reinvent the wheel"  question.

 

Well, that was fun.

 

Blessings,

[Olaf Bacon]

Olaf,
When you see a question like, "Why try to reinvent the wheel?" is the kind of question which isn't a question that requires an answer. The question is both satirical and rhetorical, of which when such a person asks something like that, he (or she) is actually challenging legitimacy or the purpose of doing something which as been already done or accomplished, and by it being satirical makes what the person is doing as both pointless and ludicrous.

So, let's see what djmarko was getting at when he asked that satirical and rhetorical question.

• The first thing he pointed out was that the LSB is the latest update of the NASB.
• Then he pointed out that the "New American" bit has been replaced with the word "Legacy."
• Finally, all that was basically done in the LSB (pka NASB) was to just have the word "Yahweh" replace the word "LORD" in it, and hail it as a new translation.

So, basically what this really came down to is instead of putting out a brand new "translation" (which is the metaphorical reinvention of the wheel), why not just publish a new edition of the NASB, of which would contain the work "Yahweh" in it.

So, the crazy thing is this, by you highlighting the video actually proves the point that djmarko made with is rhetorical and satirical "reinvent the wheel" question.

Well, that was fun.

Blessings,

In reply to APsit190,
the video reference which I provided for the readership of Bible Support members, provides the answer to the question by the relevant translators of The Legacy Standard Bible, themselves, as to why the translators decided to print the name Yahweh, in English, as a translation of the Hebrew YHWH, which Hebrew rabbis for centuries have not pronounced in public due to their revenance for the name. This was one of the queries raised by djmarko53.
If you compare their decision with the note in the "Foreword", written by the translator Henry Wansbrough, Ampleforth Abbey, York, June 2019, in the Holy Bible Revised New Jerusalem Bible: Study Edition, Published by Darton, Longman, and Todd Ltd, 2019, there you will read:
"Soon after his election as Pope, [that was 2005], Benedict XVI was approached by the Chief Rabbi of Rome who said that the use of a possible vocalisation of the divine name was offensive to Jews. Pope Benedict submitted the matter to the Pontifical Biblical Commission, and we recommended the use of 'LORD', with small capitals, for YHWH, a suggestion which the Pope accepted."

This indicates that the Lockman Foundation has deliberately decided to disagree with the latest decisions between the Hebrew speaking Rabbis and the Papal Magisterium, as to the most appropriate words to use in the translation of that Hebrew word into English, for use in a Study Bible, which is being used for liturgal use and private study and public reading, by English speakers, worldwide. The text of the Revised New Jerusalem Bible, and the accompanying footnotes, have been granted the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales, declaring that they are considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error.
Perhaps you forgot that Catholics were officially instructed not to use the word Yahweh, in the liturgy, many years ago.
The LSB is not just a Bible for use by the Hebrews Roots movement, and was a serious new translation of the text of the Bible, which was based on the latest decisions in the printed edition of the Nestle-Aland and United Bible Societies texts.

Being attentive to world events and to be aware of what words offends the ears of many people, is important for all believers to take into consideration.
Have a good day, further.

Edited by Olaf Bacon, 08 November 2022 - 03:27 AM.