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Works and Fruit

By billfarkas, 16 April 2012 · 77 views

Just a few theological ruminations...

Why do we do the things we do?  Those who believe in Grace and Eternal Security are often maligned for being too libertine, and those who say they are just trying to "live for Christ" are accused of legalism.  So...what's the difference?

Well, I got to thinking...

First off, Titus 2:11, 12 says: For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

According to Paul, a proper understanding of grace will produce righteous actions.  But there's that issue again - the "doing" issue.  We are all the time occupied with the "What does God want me to DO" question.  Personally, I think the question is short-sighted.  God's intentions for us go far beyond "doing."  His plan for us is about "being."  It's about what/who we "are" in Christ.

But Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That means I've got to do something. Right?

Galations 5 has two lists: the works of the flesh and the Fruit of the Spirit.  The entire scope of our contribution is on the first list, and God's on the second.

Works and Fruit - an interesting juxtaposition.  One is produced by effort and the other is natural, intrinsic.  Interesting if you apply it to the topic at hand.  One is about doing, and one is about being.

The exertion of our efforts produces what?  Well, let's look at the list: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like.  Not a very impressive list.  These are what my "works" will produce.  Try as I may, all I can produce is destruction.

De-struction.

That's an interesting word, because biblically speaking, God is the only One who is CONstructive.  God is actually the only Entity in the entire universe actually "doing" something.  My efforts only produce the un-doing of what God has done.  Sin produces nothing, it only causes pre-existent things (our God-given desires, for instance) to become undone, to fall apart, to dis-integrate (In Him all things consist).

So what does that say about me trying to "do" something for Christ?  The obvious answer is: I can't!

Now, hold on a sec, before you blow your stack...

Fruit on the other hand comes without effort.  Trees and plants do not have to try to be fruitful.  Fruit happens.  A gardener can help cultivate fruit, but the fruit will come all on it's own.  Dare I say that an apple tree is "predestined" to bear fruit (Rom. 8:29, 30).

But, hold on just another sec...

"If you LOVE Me, keep MY commandments."  Love.  Hmmm.  Now where did I see that.  Love.  Which list is Love from.

(Finger snap)  That's it!

Love is a Fruit of the Spirit!  It's a Fruit, not a work.  (Chew on it for a minute.)  Fact is, I am incapable of love apart from the God Who is Love.  Love comes from the sanctifying presence of God's Holy Spirit within me.  So...if I need love to keep His commandments, and love comes from Him...then my keeping of His commandments begins with Him, not me.  He does it in me.  All I have to do is get out of the way.

I frequently ask people a question along these lines - let's use prayer for instance.  "The desire to pray, does it come from the flesh or from the Spirit?"  The Spirit, of course.  So then, prayer begins with God, not me.

"Yeah, but I say 'yes' to the Spirit," will be the Arminian objection.  There they go again...I, me, my.  "What about me?"  Me, me, me.  They just can't see beyond themselves.  Sad, really.  This is why self-effort is like walking on a treadmill - expending all kinds of energy and never getting anywhere.  Sure, you get stronger...at going nowhere.

"But, but...We gotta work out our own salvation with fear and trembling," they will say.  Curious that they rarely include the balance of that thought: "for it is God who works in you both to will AND to do for His good pleasure."  He makes me want it and gives me the love to do it.  See.  It's all Him.

Stop trying to steal His glory!  Let Him do it and give Him all the glory.  This is grace.  This is truth.

Savlanut

Blessings,
Bill

Peter Pellerin

Apr 16 2012 08:40 PM

These are great thoughts Bill. Thanks for taking the time to write them.

My only comments would be this:

God does not force us to desire Him. He puts the desire in our hearts and draws us, but we still have to respond to His call. Without His calling and drawing, we would not make the choice. God desires a relationship with us. Love is not forced. This is probably what you had in mind when you said that the only thing we have to do is get out of the way... Correct me if I am wrong.

We do have to choose to set aside the desires of our flesh and respond to the spiritual desires that God has put within us. This does not just happen. It is a daily war of the Spirit and the flesh. The fruit grows naturally as we are receive nourishment from the Word and as we drink into the Spirit (1Co 12:13).

God gets all the glory as we would not enter into this battle without His grace and we would not have be able to stand in the battle without His grace.

Blessings,
Peter

billfarkas

Apr 17 2012 05:09 PM

Hi Peter,

Thanx for the comments. I understand what you're saying, and you're right - that is kinda what I meant about getting out of His way.

We do indeed respond, but how and why do we do it? The Scriptural balance of God's Sovereignty and human responsibility is seen throughout the Bible. Phil. 2:12, & 13 illustrate this balance perfectly, and there are several others. The two must be entirely true - at the same time. I think most of us here would agree with that. Yet, when there seems to be tension between the two, we must interpret the lesser in light of the greater.

To say that God is entirely sovereign doesn't mean we become puppets, because His sovereignty is based on love and intimate knowledge. The funny thing about sovereignty is that the moment you try to limit it in the slightesr way - it ceases to be sovereignty. But, let me reiterate - sovereignty doesn't equal puppetry.

Let me ask a question: Jesus healed several people who had withered hands/arms. He commanded one man to stretch out his hand. Did this man have the ability to respond to this command? No, he didn't. The ability came with the command. That incident was no an accident. It had purpose.

Before anyone tries to wrangle up an objection, let's raise the stakes. Jesus commanded Lazarus to come forth out of the grave. Did Lazarus choose to come forth? Did he respond to Christ's call? Of course not. Dead men can't respond. The ability came with the call. This is an analogy of the Gospel.

Proponents of "free will" really don't understand what they are saying. They act as if man is on some sort of moral neutral ground and can choose to go either way. But the Bible describes the natural man as at enmity with God. Man is not on the fence - he is at war against God.

Here's something to think about: the second you define free will as our ability to choose on our own, apart from God - you've just defined sin itself. Adam and Eve chose on their own and we know how that turned out.

If you say that we make choices with God's influence then you're actually talking about submission based on revelation, not free will. I don't even know what good is unless He reveals it to me. So how can I choose it? When I choose self, it is of the flesh; when I choose God, it is of the Spirit.

It's a semantical argument, but the focus matters. If I think I have anything to do with it - it's destined to fail. I don't even have the ability to set aside my fleshly desires (Rom 7:15-25, at the end Paul cries out for deliverance, not help). The only remedy is to desire something better. If my only concern is "to not do" something, then my focus is earthly (Col. 2:20, 21). If my focus is on Christ (in worship) then my desires will follow. We do what we desire - the answer is to desire better. This is not a matter of the will. This is a matter of yielding to what the Spirit IS ALREADY doing in us - if we'll get out of the way.

Blessings Peter!

Bill

APsit190

Apr 17 2012 07:28 PM

Bill,
I have to say this, I both agree and disagree in some aspects, and this makes it difficult for me as I prefer to either totally disagree or totally agree. It makes life much simpler.

Firstly, I tend to disagree with the concept doing things (works) is just of the flesh. What has not been seen here with regards to the works of the flesh, is that Paul actually defined what those works are. And what is also significant is that they have actually nothing to do with ... wait for it... being created for good works, as Paul outlined in Ephesians. So with that, my question is, "what is meant by works?" Some Christians like to think that they don't have to do a thing, in that God just does it all for them, and they can sit cross legged and naval gazing, going oooooooaaaaaaammmmmmm, or something like that.

Secondly, in the way that the works of the flesh and of the Fruit of the Spirit is presented here I can go along with to a point. What is missing with regard to the comparison (or maybe I just don't see it) is that its where one is doing things just to please him/herself (a good word for that is narcissism) in contrast to what God does in one's life as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit when that person has become subordinate to God.

If this was a paper presented for marking, over all I'd give it a C+ as there are a lot of good points you have made. In your response to Pete, I like the way you described the issue of "free will," and in the way you defined it, and in that I can totally agree with you, and go along with what you said. Now, for me, that was the best part of it all. Where I think you went off the mark was in your definition of what works is, which was largely eisegetical.

Blessings,

Peter Pellerin

Apr 17 2012 09:09 PM

Where I think you went off the mark was in your definition of what works is, which was largely eisegetical.Blessings,

Wow Stephen. Eisegetical is a big word! I had to look that one up. It is good to learn a new word.

Peter Pellerin

Apr 17 2012 09:36 PM

I enjoy discussing these issues, but I hesitate to get into them too deep because people get so emotional about these issues. I started to write a long reply, but I think I should stick to what I believe is wise, even though it is sooooo hard for me to do.

I used to spend a lot of time debating these issues, reading books, searching the scriptures, ect...

A couple of scriptures really ministered too me. Some have told me they are a cop out, but I still cling to them anyway.

During a time in my life when I was wrestling with these issues I came accross a short little 3 verse Psalm (Psalm 131)

Ps 131:1; A Song of degrees of David. LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.Ps 131:2; Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child.

I think that some issues are too high for us to fully comprehend. In our pride (I include myself in this), we have to be right in how we resolve the apparent conflicts in scripture so we will debate and argue. Because the things are too high for us we often end up defending one theological position or another and having to force our view on many scriptures that do not seem to fit.

I could only find one commentator who saw the same thing in this Psalm.

Here is a quote from the Believers Bible Commentary by William MacDonald on this Psalm:

There are some problems in life that defy explanation. Mysteries too deep to fathom. Strange circumstances that puzzle the keenest intellect.

Who, for example, can say the last word on the problem of human suffering?

Who can answer all the questions that surface in the area of unanswered prayer?

Who can reconcile God's sovereign election and man's free will?

131:1 David didn't profess to know all the answers. His heart was not lifted up like that of an insufferable know-it-all. His eyes were not raised too high, as if he were the finished intellectual egotist. He recognized his limitations and was not ashamed to say, "I don't know." He was content to know what he could know and leave the mysteries with God. Why occupy himself with things that were too great and too profound for him? No, he gave God credit for understanding things that he could never understand.

The other scripture that ministered to me as I was wrestling with these questions (partly because there were Calvinists in my life who were telling me I did not believe the true gospel because I was not a Calvinist), was from 1 Corinthians:

1Cor 4:6; And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

In the case of Calvinism, regardless of what side we are on, we tend to think and use explanations that go beyond where scripture goes. In my desire to be puffed up, I want everyone to agree with how I have reconciled these issues in my pride so I will discuss them endlessly.

I have decided that is best to just believe what the scripture says and to try not to think to far beyond what is written.

I am attempting to just believe the scriptural statements concerning these issues and to seek God's help daily to walk in the Spirit so I do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I am trying to lay aside my pride and admit that some things are too high for me!

I do not know if that adds to the discussion, but instead of getting in another debate I decided to share that.

I do appreciate the discussion and points made by both of you.

Blessings,
Peter

LarryG

Apr 18 2012 12:19 AM

Thank you Bill. Thank you Peter: God's blessings upon both of you.

Psalms 133:1-3
A song of ascents.
Of David.
How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity!

It is like precious oil poured on the head,
running down on the beard,
running down on Aaron's beard,
down upon the collar of his robes.

It is as if the dew of Hermon
were falling on Mount Zion.
For there the LORD bestows his blessing,
even life forevermore.

What was it about Christ that attracted the children? What was it that amazed the crowds after Christ's teaching on the Mount, what were they muttering amongst themselves? Were the children atracted by his doctrine? Were the crowds amazed because of his doctrine?

What is that 'beauty of holiness'? I am totally amazed at the humility and beauty found in wild flowers. God just scatters the seeds out in the middle of nowhere, usually only the eagles and ground squirrels are the only observers. The fragrence is wonderful, the colors vibrant - no pretention, they just 'are'. Even Solomon was not arrayed as one of these.

billfarkas

Apr 18 2012 05:49 PM

Hi All,

Stephen - C+ - you are a harsh taskmaster!! ;^) Thanx for the comments - pro and con.

I wasn't saying that all works are of the flesh - I'm all about "good works." Our faith produces works, as the Book of James says. I'm addressing the impetus for truly "good" works. Where do they begin? If a work originates with me, then it will be on the list entitled "the works of the flesh." If it is prompted by the Holy Spirit, then it began with God.

It's ironic that you quote Ephesians 2:10 - I was gonna use that verse, but decided not to for brevity. There are several points brought out by that verse: first, the idea of "good" works. Paul says in Romans 7:18, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells." So, if there is no good in me, how can I do "good works"? Jesus rejected the title "good teacher" saying, "there is none good but God." You will say, I do good works because God's Spirit indwells me. That's my point! The good in me begins with God - if I say yes to the Spirit and do what He asks, then I have submitted to His revelation within me.

Secondly, notice that Eph. 2:10 says the works are prepared by God beforehand. Again, that's my point. They begin with Him, not me.

Thirdly, notice that Eph. 2:10 says we should "walk" in them. It doesn't say we should toil in them or labor in them or even work at them. God prepares the path before us and we simply walk in it. That's not to say the path will be easy, only that it has already been mapped out...beforehand...by God...not me...

The point here is about focus. There are those who are always preoccupied with their perfomance stats or batting average. If we are doing things for the wrong reason, they cease to be good works. Luke 17:5-10 is a great passage for these kind of folks. Jesus says that even if we were able to be completely obedient (and we can't) we would be unprofitable servants, because we have only done that which was our duty to do.

Here's an example I frequently use: Let's say I'm trying to avoid donuts: so I go around all day saying, "don't eat the donut, don't eat the donut, don't eat the donut." Where is my focus? It's on the donut. That is a recipe for failure. Col. 2:18-23 says this is fleshly minded.

But if my focus is rapt in Him, I will lift up praises to His name and be transformed in His presence.
No eisegesis, as I wasn't defining works, per se, rather I was merely pointing out that the source of the work will determine what sort it will be. Recognizing that He is the only source of our good works will prevent us from saying, "look how much I've done," next time we want a prayer answered.

Peter, thanx for your remarks as well. I agree that some things are indeed too wonderful for us. Walking in the Spirit sounds like a great plan! If you'd like to start a deeper discussion elsewhere, I'm always open to civil discourse.

Larry, great thoughts. In spite of all the devastation our sin has caused, there truly is beauty all around us if we'll take the time to see it. The appreciation of beauty is evidence of His being.

Blessings,
Bill

APsit190

Apr 18 2012 09:22 PM

Hi Bill,
Now on this one you're really cooking with gas and I can give you an B+ for it. Sorry mate, but A's and A+ are not what I prefer to give because no one is that good, even myself

)

It's ironic that you quote Ephesians 2:10 - I was gonna use that verse, but decided not to for brevity.

Now, that is what happens when you leave something out that you should have put in. Because I think if you had have put it in at first, then your picture wouldn't have looked skewered and I would then have been almost in total agreement with you. Leaving something out for whatever reason can sometimes make something look erroneous and/or eisegetical despite not intending it to be. I learned that one the hard way sometime ago when I flunked a paper that I presented. I left something out that was regarded as crucial to what I was trying to present, and because of that, I got me an F. I had to redo the whole paper. Not much fun at all.

Anyway, I would like to see some more of your stuff on here, as I do find it really interesting and something worthwhile reading.

Blessings,