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The thin narrow line --- Exegesis vs. Eisegesis

By cbb1962, 02 September 2013 · 2,911 views

Old Testament New Testament Denominations and Disciplines History Biblical Studies
All of us want our study of scripture to be God communicating his intent to us without our preconceived notions. That is exegesis, letting the text determine our doctrine. However we all have far too much religious baggage. We all tend to make preconceived assumptions about certain texts without realizing it. That is eisegesis, letting our doctrine determine what the text means.

If everyone were able to achieve true exegesis all denominations would cease to exist, from over 38,000 different Christian Denominations down to one.

Our goal with e-Sword is obviously proper exegesis. Easy to say, difficult to achieve.

E-Sword gives us some great tools to dig deeply into the scripture. One such tool is the LXXC – Concordance to the Septuagint. This is a list of every Greek word in the Septuagint that has been assigned a Strong's number, along with all forms of that word.

As more and more evidence emerges that Hebrew was not a dead language in the first century, it is exciting that we have a first century Greek to Hebrew dictionary. The LXXC - Concordance to the Septuagint is just such a tool.

Too often we accept 21st Century definitions of First Century words. We fall head first into eisegesis.

Consider this word study:

New Testament uses of the Greek word G4137 πληρόω plēroō in the form of: πληρωσαι
πληρωσαι appears four times in the New Testament:
Mat_3:15 KJV And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat_5:17 KJV Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Rom_15:13 KJV Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
Col_1:25 KJV Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

πληρωσαι appears nine times in the Septuagint - I have placed its English translation (the Brenton) the King James, the LXX, and the Hebrew Interlinear for comparison:

Num_7:88 Brenton All the cattle for a sacrifice of peace-offering, twenty-four heifers, sixty rams, sixty he-goats of a year old, sixty ewe-lambs of a year old without blemish: this is the dedication of the altar, after that Moses consecrated Aaron, and after he anointed him.
Num_7:88 KJV And all the oxen for the sacrifice of the peace offerings were twenty and four bullocks, the rams sixty, the he goats sixty, the lambs of the first year sixty. This was the dedication of the altar, after that it was anointed.
Num 7:88 LXX πᾶσαι αἱ βόες εἰς θυσίαν σωτηρίου δαμάλεις εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, κριοὶ ἑξήκοντα, τράγοι ἑξήκοντα, ἀμνάδες ἑξήκοντα ἐνιαύσιαι ἄμωμοι. αὕτη ἡ ἐγκαίνωσις τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου μετὰ τὸ πληρῶσαι τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ καὶ μετὰ τὸ χρῖσαι αὐτόν. --

(Num 7:88)וכלH3605 And all בקרH1241 the oxen זבחH2077 for the sacrifice השׁלמיםH8002 of the peace offerings עשׂריםH6242 twenty וארבעהH702 and four פריםH6499 bullocks, אילםH352 the rams שׁשׁיםH8346 sixty, עתדיםH6260 the he goats שׁשׁיםH8346 sixty, כבשׂיםH3532 the lambs בניH1121 of the first שׁנהH8141 year שׁשׁיםH8346 sixty. זאתH2063 This חנכתH2598 the dedication המזבחH4196 of the altar, אחריH310 after that המשׁחH4886 it was anointed. אתו׃H853

1Ch_29:5 Brenton for thee to use the gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for every work by the hand of the artificers. And who is willing to dedicate himself in work this day for the Lord?
1Ch_29:5 KJV The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?
1Ch_29:5 LXX διὰ χειρὸς τεχνιτῶν. καὶ τίς ὁ προθυμούμενος πληρῶσαι τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ σήμερον κυρίῳ;

(1Ch 29:5) לזהבH2091 The gold לזהבH2091 for of gold, ולכסףH3701 and the silver לכסףH3701 for of silver, ולכלH3605 and for all manner מלאכהH4399 of work בידH3027 by the hands חרשׁיםH2796 of artificers. ומיH4310 And who מתנדבH5068 is willing למלאותH4390 to consecrate his service ידוH3027 to consecrate his service היוםH3117 this day ליהוה׃H3068 unto the LORD?

2Ch_13:9 Brenton Did ye not cast out the priests of the Lord, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and make to yourselves priests of the people of any other land? whoever came to consecrate himself with a calf of the heard and seven rams, he forthwith became a priest to that which is no god.
2Ch_13:9 KJV Have ye not cast out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and have made you priests after the manner of the nations of other lands? so that whosoever cometh to consecrate himself with a young bullock and seven rams, the same may be a priest of them that are no gods.
2Ch_13:9 LXX ἦ οὐκ ἐξεβάλετε τοὺς ἱερεῖς κυρίου τοὺς υἱοὺς Ααρων καὶ τοὺς Λευίτας καὶ ἐποιήσατε ἑαυτοῖς ἱερεῖς ἐκ τοῦ λαοῦ τῆς γῆς; πᾶς ὁ προσπορευόμενος πληρῶσαι τὰς χεῖρας ἐν μόσχῳ ἐκ βοῶν καὶ κριοῖς ἑπτὰ καὶ ἐγίνετο εἰς ἱερέα τῷ μὴ ὄντι θεῷ.

(2Ch 13:9) הלאH3808 Have ye not הדחתםH5080 cast out אתH853 כהניH3548 the priests יהוהH3068 of the LORD, אתH853 בניH1121 the sons אהרןH175 of Aaron, והלויםH3881 and the Levites, ותעשׂוH6213 and have made לכם כהניםH3548 you priests כעמיH5971 after the manner of the nations הארצותH776 of lands? כלH3605 so that whosoever הבאH935 cometh למלאH4390 to consecrate ידוH3027 to consecrate בפרH6499 bullock בןH1121 himself with a young בקרH1241 himself with a young ואילםH352 rams, שׁבעהH7651 and seven והיהH1961 may be כהןH3548 a priest ללאH3808 of no אלהים׃H430 gods.

Job_20:23 Brenton If by any means he would fill his belly, let God send upon him the fury of wrath; let him bring a torrent of pains upon him.
Job_20:23 KJV When he is about to fill his belly, God shall cast the fury of his wrath upon him, and shall rain it upon him while he is eating.
Job_20:23 LXX εἴ πως πληρώσαι γαστέρα αὐτοῦ, ἐπαποστείλαι ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν θυμὸν ὀργῆς, νίψαι ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν ὀδύνας·

(Job 20:23) יהיH1961 he למלאH4390 is about to fill בטנוH990 his belly, ישׁלחH7971 shall cast בו חרוןH2740 the fury אפוH639 of his wrath וימטרH4305 upon him, and shall rain עלימוH5921 upon בלחומו׃H3894 him while he is eating.

Psa_20:4-5 Brenton (19:4) Grant thee according to thy heart, and fulfill all thy desire. (5) (19:5) We will exult in thy salvation, and in the name of our God shall we be magnified: the Lord fulfil all thy petitions.
Psa_20:4-5 KJV Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel. (5) We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.
Psa_20:4-5 LXX (19:5) δῴη σοι κατὰ τὴν καρδίαν σου καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν βουλήν σου πληρώσαι. (5) (19:6) ἀγαλλιασόμεθα ἐν τῷ σωτηρίῳ σου καὶ ἐν ὀνόματι θεοῦ ἡμῶν μεγαλυνθησόμεθα. πληρώσαι κύριος πάντα τὰ αἰτήματά σου.

(Psa 20:4-5) יתןH5414 Grant לך כלבבךH3824 thee according to thine own heart, וכלH3605 all עצתךH6098 thy counsel. ימלא׃ and fulfill H4390 (5) נרננהH7442 We will rejoice בישׁועתךH3444 in thy salvation, ובשׁםH8034 and in the name אלהינוH430 of our God נדגלH1713 we will set up banners: ימלאH4390 fulfill יהוהH3068 the LORD כלH3605 all משׁאלותיך׃H4862 thy petitions.

Isa_8:8 Brenton and he shall take away from Juda every man who shall be able to lift up his head, and every one able to accomplish anything; and his camp shall fill the breadth of thy land, O God with us.
Isa_8:8 KJV And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isa_8:8 LXX καὶ ἀφελεῖ ἀπὸ τῆς Ιουδαίας ἄνθρωπον ὃς δυνήσεται κεφαλὴν ἆραι ἢ δυνατὸν συντελέσασθαί τι, καὶ ἔσται ἡ παρεμβολὴ αὐτοῦ ὥστε πληρῶσαι τὸ πλάτος τῆς χώρας σου· μεθ᾿ ἡμῶν ὁ θεός.

(Isa 8:8) וחלףH2498 And he shall pass ביהודהH3063 through Judah; שׁטףH7857 he shall overflow ועברH5674 and go over, עדH5704 to צוארH6677 the neck; יגיעH5060 he shall reach והיהH1961 מטותH4298 and the stretching out כנפיוH3671 of his wings מלאH4393 shall fill רחבH7341 the breadth ארצךH776 of thy land, עמנו אל׃H6005 O Immanuel.

Isa_13:3 Brenton I give command, and I bring them: giants are coming to fulfil my wrath, rejoicing at the same time and insulting.
Isa_13:3 KJV I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
Isa_13:3 LXX ἐγὼ συντάσσω, καὶ ἐγὼ ἄγω αὐτούς· ἡγιασμένοι εἰσίν, καὶ ἐγὼ ἄγω αὐτούς· γίγαντες ἔρχονται πληρῶσαι τὸν θυμόν μου χαίροντες ἅμα καὶ ὑβρίζοντες.

(Isa 13:3) אניH589 I צויתיH6680 have commanded למקדשׁיH6942 my sanctified ones, גםH1571 I have also קראתיH7121 called גבוריH1368 my mighty ones לאפיH639 for mine anger, עליזיH5947 them that rejoice גאותי׃H1346 in my highness.

Jer_33:5 Brenton (40:5) to fight against the Chaldeans, and to fill it with the corpses of men, whom I smote in mine anger and my wrath, and turned away my face from them, for all their wickedness:
Jer_33:5 KJV They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
Jer_33:5 LXX (40:5) τοῦ μάχεσθαι πρὸς τοὺς Χαλδαίους καὶ πληρῶσαι αὐτὴν τῶν νεκρῶν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, οὓς ἐπάταξα ἐν ὀργῇ μου καὶ ἐν θυμῷ μου, καὶ ἀπέστρεψα τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἀπ᾿ αὐτῶν περὶ πασῶν τῶν πονηριῶν αὐτῶν

(Jer 33:5) באיםH935 They come להלחםH3898 to fight אתH854 with הכשׂדיםH3778 the Chaldeans, ולמלאםH4390 but to fill אתH854 them with פגריH6297 the dead bodies האדםH120 of men, אשׁרH834 whom הכיתיH5221 I have slain באפיH639 in mine anger ובחמתיH2534 and in my fury, ואשׁרH834 whose הסתרתיH5641 I have hid פניH6440 my face מהעירH5892 city. הזאתH2063 from this עלH5921 and for כלH3605 all רעתם׃H7451 wickedness

This was not what I expected when I started this word study. Many denominations have their doctrinal foundation in the traditional meaning of "fulfill."

This is the thin narrow line. Exegesis vs. Eisegesis, the first century biblical definition vs. the traditional meaning.

Dedicate; consecrate; completely fill vs. Accomplish; perform; complete; execute; end; no longer valid.

Cue baggage cart...





There is more then one LXX or Greek translation.

The Apostolic Bible Polyglot ABP-G+ (by the defaut downloads of e-Sword) has another text that is closer to the Hebrew text.

Sometimes is the verse numbering different in the LXX.

 

 

Num 7:88 πασαι αι βοες εις θυσιαν σωτηριου δαμαλεις εικοσιτεσσαρες κριοι εξηκοντα τραγοι εξηκοντα αμναδες εξηκοντα ενιαυσιοι αμωμοι αυτη η εγκαινωσις του θυσιαστηριου μετα το χρισαι αυτον (ABP)

Num 7:88 πᾶσαι αἱ βόες εἰς θυσίαν σωτηρίου δαμάλεις εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, κριοὶ ἑξήκοντα, τράγοι ἑξήκοντα, ἀμνάδες ἑξήκοντα ἐνιαύσιαι ἄμωμοι. αὕτη ἡ ἐγκαίνωσις τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου μετὰ τὸ πληρῶσαι τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ καὶ μετὰ τὸ χρῖσαι αὐτόν. (LXX)

 

1Ch 29:5 εις το χρυσιον τωχρυσιω και εις το αργυριον τω αργυριω και εις παν εργον δια χειρος τεχνιτων και τις ο προθυμουμενος πληρωσαι τας χειρας αυτου σημερον τω κυριω(ABP)

1Ch 29:5 διὰ χειρὸς τεχνιτῶν. καὶ τίς ὁ προθυμούμενος πληρῶσαι τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ σήμερον κυρίῳ; (LXX)

 

Isa 13:3 εγω συντασσω και εγω αγω αυτους γιγαντες ερχονται πληρωσαι τον θυμον μου χαιροντες αμα και υβριζοντες (ABP)

Isa 13:3 ἐγὼ συντάσσω, καὶ ἐγὼ ἄγω αὐτούς· ἡγιασμένοι εἰσίν, καὶ ἐγὼ ἄγω αὐτούς· γίγαντες ἔρχονται πληρῶσαι τὸν θυμόν μου χαίροντες ἅμα καὶ ὑβρίζοντες. (LXX)

πληρωσαι Does not appear in the ABP for Numbers 7:88 but it does in  1Ch 29:5 and Isa 13:3 As well as all the other LXX passages: 2Ch 13:9; Job 20:23; Psa 20:4; Psa 20:5; Isa 8:8; and Jer 33:5.

 

 

1Ch 29:5 εις το χρυσιον τωχρυσιω και εις το αργυριον τω αργυριω και εις παν εργον δια χειρος τεχνιτων και τις ο προθυμουμενος πληρωσαι τας χειρας αυτου σημερον τω κυριω(ABP)

Isa 13:3 εγω συντασσω και εγω αγω αυτους γιγαντες ερχονται πληρωσαι τον θυμον μου χαιροντες αμα και υβριζοντες (ABP)

 

1Ch 29:5 ABP-G+  ειςG1519 τοG3588 χρυσιονG5553 τωG3588 χρυσιωG5553 καιG2532 ειςG1519 τοG3588 αργυριονG694 τωG3588 αργυριωG694 καιG2532 ειςG1519 πανG3956 εργονG2041 διαG1223 χειροςG5495 τεχνιτωνG5079 καιG2532 τιςG5100 οG3588 προθυμουμενοςG4287.1πληρωσαιG4137 ταςG3588 χειρας αυτουG5495G1473 σημερονG4594 τωG3588 κυριωG2962

 

1Ch 29:5 ABP+  forG1519 theG3588 goldG5553 for theG3588 gold things ,G5553 andG2532 forG1519 theG3588 silverG694 for theG3588 silver things ,G694 andG2532 forG1519 everyG3956 workG2041 byG1223the handG5495 of craftsmen.G5079 AndG2532 whoG5100G3588is feeling eager toG4287.1fillG4137 G3588 his handsG5495G1473 todayG4594 to theG3588 lord ?G2962

 

This phrase “to fill his hands” is an interesting one.  It is a Hebrew idiom for Ordination and Consecration.  This exactly parallels the King James and Young’s Literal.

 

1Ch 29:5 KJV  The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?

 

1Ch 29:5 HOT+  לזהבH2091  לזהבH2091  ולכסףH3701  לכסףH3701  ולכלH3605  מלאכהH4399  בידH3027  חרשׁיםH2796  ומיH4310  מתנדבH5068  למלאותH4390  ידוH3027  היוםH3117  ליהוה׃H3068

1Ch 29:5 YLT  even gold for things of gold, and silver for those of silver, and for all the work by the hand of artificers; and who is he that is offering willingly to consecrate his hand to-day to Jehovah?'

if the interpreter is honest with himself and the text when studying, then "eisegesis, letting our doctrine determine what the text means" can be avoided.  In studying words:
 
Find the word (Greek, or Hebrew-Aramic) locating its Strong or G/K number.  When studying a word locate all occurrences.  Study all or most occurrences in their contexts, note people, places, things in connection.  Study all occurrences for best results, unknown words, words appearing many times, and cognates.  Do not force all definitions on the word, nor sensationalize but choose the definition fits the context.  Then check conclusion with word study books, theological dictionary like BAGD, NITDNT, NITDNT and/or commentary.  Yeah!!!! This requires more than quoting one's favorite Christian leader or scholar.

 

There is a circle which we claim does not exist.  We are depedant on commentaries (including Translations of Greek and Hebrew, the KJV, NIV, NAS).  yes Translations of Greek and Hebrew, the KJV, NIV, NAS are commentaries

Translations Commitees do make mistakes.  I do not mean Translations cannot communicate the Greek and Hebrew.  Everything outside the orginal Hebrew/Greek is basically a commentary, which needs to be checked.

 

M

the KJVNIV, NAS are commentaries

 
Mike, I applaud your frankness and I agree completely.  The translators were/are men, period.
 
The first time this became aware of this was John 1:17:
 

 

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 
(Joh 1:17 KJV)
 
From the Preface to the King James Bible:
The King James Bible was...  printed in black letter with small italicized Roman type to represent those words not in the original languages.

 

 
 

I now call this the biggest "But" in the Bible.  That little "but" completely changes the meaning of the verse.  The addition of the "but" was the translators commentary on what they wanted the verse to mean, not what it said.  

 

At least the KJV translators had the courtesy to clue us in that they were adding words for "clarification/commentary."  Many modern translations treat the addition as if it were God breathed, not even acknowledging anything was added.

 

 

John 1:17

21st Century King James Version (KJ21) from BibleGateway.com

 

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 1:17

New English Translation (NET) from BibleGateway.com

17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ.

 

John 1:17

Good News Translation (GNT) from BibleGateway.com

17 God gave the Law through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

It does God's word an injustice when anyone takes a phrase and builds an entire theology out of it...  No wonder there are more christian denominations than there are verses in the Bible.

 

Clint

"I now call this the biggest "But" in the Bible.  That little "but" completely changes the meaning of the verse.  The addition of the "but" was the translators commentary on what they wanted the verse to mean, not what it said."

It is very rough translation to do word by word that being so-called literal translation.  Translators sometimes have to smooth things out.

 

here is similar example:

 

God's servant (Isa 49:6) is TO BE salvation or  SO THAT (the purpose of salvation).  Slightly different.  Oswalt (NICOT) and Moyter (IVP) argue TO BE.

 

Translation is not as easy as 123.

 

M


All of us want our study of scripture to be God communicating his intent to us without our preconceived notions. That is exegesis, letting the text determine our doctrine. However we all have far too much religious baggage. We all tend to make preconceived assumptions about certain texts without realizing it. That is eisegesis, letting our doctrine determine what the text means.

 

 

I have to admit that in all my years of studying hermeneutics, I've never come across a definition of Exegesis and Eisegesis as this. It certainly is an original take on it.

 

That said, usually when statements like this are made, the author tends to have an axe to grind, or is on some sort of crusade to prove himself to be right (correct) and everyone else is wrong, and therefore when differing thoughts come along, though not incorrect (or in error) still will not be listened to. They become paralyzed in their own particular world view or perspective.

 

Perhaps the two most extremes of differing world views of interpretation of Scripture is that of Calvinists (Reformationists) and non-Calvinists; Pentecostals/Charismatics and Conservative Evangelicals. And in all of these camps, everyone has accused the other of heresy and etc. I don't want to leave out the liberal theologians, gay theologians and etc., as all of them also have a part to play in what is determined to be either Exegesis and/or Eisegesis. So, when it comes to these kind of things, well, someone's gotta be wrong, and someone's gotta be right. Not everyone can be right, and not everyone can be wrong. So how do we make those determining factors? What is error, what is heresy, and what is the right doctrine that we are to believe in?

 

The one thing is for certain, in viewing these things, we cannot take the moral relativists world view as their take on this is there is nothing that is absolute, and everything is relative. And we know that is next to near impossible to live out. Moreover, having a take on unity as "agreeing on the important things, and leaving out the minor things," doesn't work either, because how do we then determine what is important against what is not important in Scripture, especially if we believe that "All (emphasis mine) Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJV)? So it looks like everything Scripture teaches is really important and relevant.

 

So, we have a huge task on our hands on determining what is truth against what is error, and what is orthodoxy against what is heterodoxy.

 

Blessings,

Autograph.png

I'm no theologian or translator, but I think it's simplistic and somewhat unfair to label translations as "basically commentaries". Most solid translators / committees make a concerted effort to avoid preconceptions when engaging in translations. They're not inerrant, but I think we can be confident that the Word of God is communicated accurately in most good translations. We can follow the example of our Lord who, while on this earth, didn't go back to the original Hebrew for His use of Scripture but apparently had full confidence in the LXX.



I'm no theologian or translator, but I think it's simplistic and somewhat unfair to label translations as "basically commentaries". Most solid translators / committees make a concerted effort to avoid preconceptions when engaging in translations.

 

I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head. That said, I have to also admit that there are "translations" I wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge poll as they really are, well best described as Perversions rather than versions.

 

However, on the whole, of all the translations I have (over 80 of them) I tend to think they are of excellent quality. As for my pet translation, I go more with the NKJV than anything else. My Pastor disagrees with me as he is an NIV fan. He reckons that is the version that God reads, but I reckon the one that God reads has to be the CJB. As for any other one, well I'll let everyone else argue over that :)

 

Blessings,

Autograph.png

While I agree in principle that translations are not (and should not be) commentaries, I tend to lend more credence to the "word for word" translations like the KJV and NASB, and so that is what I use for much of my studies.

 

I have found that the more "dynamic" the translation the more it does tend to sacrifice accuracy for ease of reading.  Still, I use the NLT (as an example) for devotional reading and on occasion even cite(where I feel that it has value in helping others understand a difficult passage.

 

None the less there are some "translations" that I consider (and use as) commentaries, most notably the J. B. Phillips and the Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest.

 

You will notice that those are one person translations or paraphrases.

 

A good commentary, like a good translation is an attempt to make the scriptures understandable...to me the primary difference between the two is that a commentary is an OPINION of a  person (or a group) as to what the scriptures mean, while a translation is an attempt to faithfully reproduce the scriptures in a language other than the original.

 

Both are valid tools for spreading the Gospel, otherwise we would be like the

followers of Islam who insist that only by learning Arabic can one properly study the Koran.

 

Christianity has, from its earliest days, been translated into the language of the people that the Apostles, missionaries and church planters were trying to reach.

 

I'll throw in another monkey wretch.  Translations are based on edited Greek/Hebrew.  In other words we have editors who insert commas, sentence breaks, parthenesis etc.  The originals had no breaks between words.  We do not have the orginal autographs so we are trusting translations.  This is why we check variants readings and multiple translations to undertand which translation is correct.  Many times different translations are correct But for different reasons such as the NIV, NLT, MESSAGE TRYING TO bring out the meaning whereas the NAS keeps its literal. It all depends what you want to accomplish.

 
Someone asked me which translation accurately communicates greek/hebrew PERFECTLY W/O FLAW. I replied NONE.  YOU HAVE TO STUDY!!!! AND WORK HARD (LABOR)!!!.  This is what God wants.  We were discussing "deacon" as church officer in every reference. It is not church officer in every usuage.  But their version did. One leader used this version w/o studying deacon usuage to support church officer in every reference.

 

none here would say the translators intently trick or mislead others with their versions. However, eisegesis does exist in translations.  Whether we are willing to admit or not.

 

The whole point is to check translations/conclusions/teachings realizing that errors can pop up. Be honest and open for correction.

 

M

I'm no theologian or translator, but I think it's simplistic and somewhat unfair to label translations as "basically commentaries". Most solid translators / committees make a concerted effort to avoid preconceptions when engaging in translations. They're not inerrant, but I think we can be confident that the Word of God is communicated accurately in most good translations. We can follow the example of our Lord who, while on this earth, didn't go back to the original Hebrew for His use of Scripture but apparently had full confidence in the LXX.

 

I'm sorry but don't agree with your assertion of a lack of Hebrew by the Messiah.  There is written evidence that at least up until the second Jewish revolt 135 A.D. the Hebrew language was alive and spoken! How can written evidence prove this?  During the revolt there are written orders that were written in Hebrew that contained contractions like our English wouldn’t vs. would not, or didn’t vs. did not. Contractions only occur in a living spoken language.  Not a dead one.

 

There is also growing evidence that parts of the New Testament may have originally been written in Hebrew.  But most scholars are so entrenched in Greek that any evidence against Greek is ignored. 

 

In recent years it has come to light that there are two to three dozen copies of the book of Matthew written in Hebrew.  These were originally dismissed as translations from Greek into Hebrew  But when copies of the Hebrew Matthew have been studied by scholars that are fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, along with their grammatical constructs and idiomatic turns of phrase - it becomes obvious to them that the Hebrew Matthew is a reproduction of an original document.   One copy of Hebrew Matthew was discovered among the items destined for Adolf Hitler’s “Museum of the extinct races.”

 

The phrasing and use of Hebrew poetry used in the Hebrew Matthew cannot be achieved by simply translating the Greek into Hebrew. However if the Hebrew is used as the original and Greek was the target then the sometimes obtuse Greek grammar is recreated.  These same scholars believe that Koine Greek is the result of this type of translation, not simply a “common man’s Greek.”  It makes sense that because the LXX was already available any passages that were quoted in the New Testament would have been simply copied without re-translating them.  

 

there are instances in Acts where the writer makes a point that Paul spoke to a group in Hebrew.  there are many instances where places are specifically referenced to the name in the Hebrew tongue.  and the placard at Jesus' crucifiction was translated into Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. see Luk_23:38; Joh_5:2; Joh_19:13; Joh_19:17; Joh_19:20; Act_21:40; Act_22:2; Act_26:14; Rev_9:11; Rev_16:16;

 

 

Act 26:14-15 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.  (15)  And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

 

 

Clint


 We were discussing "deacon" as church officer in every reference. It is not church officer in every usuage.  But their version did. One leader used this version w/o studying deacon usuage to support church officer in every reference.

 

In Greek society a deacon was a person perhaps regarded as the lowest form of a slave. You know, right down the bottom of the heap. In fact, he was nothing more than just a table waiter, a person who the head cook could take his temper out on and lay the boot into him. That is a deacon.

 

A bishop, well in Greek society he too was a slave, but was much higher in the pecking order of slaves. A bishop was a slave who supervised other slaves (a supervisor) and used deacons as a football (that is if football was around at that time).

 

Blessings,

Autograph.png

But when copies of the Hebrew Matthew have been studied by scholars that are fluent in both Greek and Hebrew, along with their grammatical constructs and idiomatic turns of phrase - it becomes obvious to them that the Hebrew Matthew is a reproduction of an original document.   One copy of Hebrew Matthew was discovered among the items destined for Adolf Hitler’s “Museum of the extinct races.”

 

Good when its authenticated then let us know.  I heard of an ancient tradtion of Hebrew/aramaic Matthew but so far NADA.

 

There is also growing evidence that parts of the New Testament may have originally been written in Hebrew.  But most scholars are so entrenched in Greek that any evidence against Greek is ignored.


NT times spoke Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.  I doubt that "most scholars are so entrenched in Greek".  This is an opinion not a fact supported w. evidence.  However, because most teach from NT there is a lean toward greek.  Also the latest Hebrew studies are under COPYRIGHT, I.E., Dictionaries, language works.  So $$$ are needed.  We all will be dead before they enter PD.

 

In other words, do not hold ur breath waiting for hebrew research in e-sword it will not happen anytime soon.

 

 

In other words, do not hold ur breath waiting for hebrew research in e-sword it will not happen anytime soon.

 

I have put together a fairly comprehensive group Public Domain Hebrew Research tools for e-Sword.  The list is here: http://www.biblesupp...o-hebrew-roots/

correction: "hebrew research in e-sword it will not happen anytime soon."

 

I meant NICOT, kolenberg's multi-lexicon, holaday's lexicon, TDOT, NIDOT,.  Nice stuff, which some I own in Hard copy but $$$$$.  They are worth it.   Not for the novice but serious students.  I'm not sure how much different the update Grammars are to Davidson, and G.K.'s grammar.

 

Is that BDB full or the brief abridged w. just definitions?

 

M

the BDB is just the definitions.  I know what you mean about $$$$ My son bought a hard copy of hatch and redpath concordance to the septuagint

it wasn't terribly pricey but it wasn't cheap, and it almost took a rocket scientist to be able to decipher it... 

 

Logos has some incredible resources but i couldn't see the $$$$ for that with more and more available for e-Sword almost every day.

 

Clint

I believe we have come a long way w. Hebrew/OT studies.  Some of WBC OT are nice as well and not that Techincal unless you study the notes.

 

My adivice is use a scanner for commentaries that you need. Cumbersome, but far cheaper than $1000 + for logos software unless you find a great deal on someone selling the Platnium version.  Very few people will steal a commentary on bible but electronics is different

 

e-Sword has vastly improved over the years w. resources.

May 2019

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